Shorty 6 Creeds

[hereinaz]

Looks like chatgpt loads to 90k psi.

You’re getting in the weeds. Get a br, gt or a dasher, reap the benefits of accuracy and ease of loading. Put 3k rounds through it in the next year and you won’t need to ask us our opinion, you will know what you want.

This is true, you are slicing the differences off so thin that in practical terms performance is so similar to be identical for the ranges you are talking about.

The benefit of the short fat cartridges are super easy loading for consistent accuracy and low ES for long range work.

I waste a lot of time screwing around with this just because, and, it’s fun.

Bottom line, the differences at the range keep showing me that much of the hand wringing is irrelevant when it comes to lead on steel and flesh. It’s trade offs that don’t end up being material when it comes to results.

 

[tap_city]

I have a 16" in 6 Creedmoor running at 2675 with 108 elms. I see pressure signs when going hotter towards 2750.
I have tried several powders (N555, H4350, Varget) and landed on N150. I also saw the exo guys talk about using H4350 which is what I tried first but if you plug all this into something like GRT or Quickload you'll see these slower powders do not get full burn in a 16" barrel which is a problem to me. Unburnt powder results in wild ES and SDs and can also hurt accuracy
This probably the biggest consideration for me when thinking about using a shorter barrel.
There is a balance between optimal case fill and burn rate that has to be achieved to get consistent shooting ammo.
Extreme spreads of 50 fps + might be acceptable for you or others and if so then this will make load development easier for you.
It's true that will probably be easier to do load dev for other cartridges like GT or BRA, that are know for being very easy to find a good shooting load but that's also in the context of usually a 24" -28" barrel length in the competitive world, which is very very different than a 16".

 

[TradLife406]

Roger that. I'll get roll with the 22 GT and call it a day. Just for the fact that when the kid rolls an elk with it this fall it'll make the Fudds cry

 

[TradLife406]

Looks like chatgpt loads to 90k psi.

You’re getting in the weeds. Get a br, gt or a dasher, reap the benefits of accuracy and ease of loading. Put 3k rounds through it in the next year and you won’t need to ask us our opinion, you will know what you want.

Yeah haha I definitely don't trust the AI for load data. If I ask it for data I'll verify it with other sources from published.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[WyOwen]

I have two sig cross’s both have proof 6CM barrels. -20” & -16”


They both shoot the same load very well (alpha srp brass, mag primer, 47.2gr 4831sc, 108 Berger EH.) 8000ft elevation

20” shoots - 3118fps

16”shoots -2881fps

The 16” is a cross stx, it’s a sweet little gun! 5” nosler can (loud but better than a bare muzzle) and a 2-20 Nx8 - weighs 8.4pounds.



Also I have a 26” comp build 6gt- that one is impressive. Alpha brass, 35gr varget 108 Berger 2996fps.

 

[ACHILLES]

Roger that. I'll get roll with the 22 GT and call it a day. Just for the fact that when the kid rolls an elk with it this fall it'll make the Fudds cry

16” 22GT will be nice. I have a 16” ruger G2 22arc now running 80eldms at 2970fps stuffed deep in the case. The GT will give you another ~150fps with 4-5gr more powder. I also run a 16” 243win, 87gr at 3050 w handloads. But at 16” its much more pleasant to shoot arc/Br/GT sized cases with low recoil and less noise suppressed.

 

[TradLife406]

16” 22GT will be nice. I have a 16” ruger G2 22arc now running 80eldms at 2970fps stuffed deep in the case. The GT will give you another ~150fps with 4-5gr more powder. I also run a 16” 243win, 87gr at 3150 w handloads. But at 16” its much more pleasant to shoot arc/Br/GT sized cases with low recoil and less noise suppressed.

Looked up 22 GT data on hodg's site. They're doing about 3000'ish in a 24" with an 88 grainer. 108 and a 6 is about the same.
Plugged the numbers into 4DoF after taking about 240 fps off for a shorter barrel.

They're basically identical out to 7-800 yards

Scheels has 88 grain eldms for 22 bucks a box vs 42 for 108's.

So there might be a small percentage difference in the size of the wound channel with a 6 but I doubt it'll be noticeable.


Ha slow day at the office with the 'tism

 

[ACHILLES]

I believe it’s Ernie on here that runs a 16” 22GT pistol. He was pushing 88s at 2940 with rl26 and 3073 out of his 18”.
I’ve been buying 75eld arc ammo for $22/box also if you buy in bulk. It’s certainly a big plus for the cartridge and guys that shoot factory ammo.

 

[The Guide]

Looked up 22 GT data on hodg's site. They're doing about 3000'ish in a 24" with an 88 grainer. 108 and a 6 is about the same.
Plugged the numbers into 4DoF after taking about 240 fps off for a shorter barrel.

They're basically identical out to 7-800 yards

Scheels has 88 grain eldms for 22 bucks a box vs 42 for 108's.

So there might be a small percentage difference in the size of the wound channel with a 6 but I doubt it'll be noticeable.


Ha slow day at the office with the 'tism

Just an FYI, the general consensus is that the 75 ELDM and the 80 ELDX give better wound channels than the 80 and 88 ELDM for most shooters. Not that the 80 and 88 ELDM are poor, just not as big or consistent as the 77tmk, 75 ELDM, and 80 ELDX. This is based on guys shooting the 22CM for hunting.

Jay

 

[Lawnboi]

If your building a 22 cal id be building it around the 80eldx.

Personally I don’t feel the barrel life loss is worth it going to 22 cal. On paper my 22 creed had less recoil. But the reality was that my even lighter dasher is easier to shoot, and has similar gun number. Plus the fast 22s do too much damage at close range ime

 

[hereinaz]

If your building a 22 cal id be building it around the 80eldx.

Personally I don’t feel the barrel life loss is worth it going to 22 cal. On paper my 22 creed had less recoil. But the reality was that my even lighter dasher is easier to shoot, and has similar gun number. Plus the fast 22s do too much damage at close range ime

Agree, the recoil difference is so minimal, I don't know why a person would weight that factor much if at all. And, rifle fit is one of the most underappreciated considerations.

Do you think the short 22 creed keeps velocity low enough that damage won't be too much?

Ultimately, 6 Dasher or 22 GT or anything close is gonna be great for a short barrel rifle.

 

[Kaleb]

What would be expected from a 6 Dasher with a 14” barrel and 108-109’s? 2,550-2,650 range?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

The AI doesn’t actually do calculations… it only predicts what the next most likely word or number will be. It makes crap up all the time.

Go 22 cal and make it an SBR, lol. The smaller caliber with same powder load always wins, if you use the same BC bullet. I went from 6 BRA to 22 BR for that reason on a fun little gun.

I have a thread out there comparing loads in 14-18” 22 creeds.

My 14” 22 creed with factory 80 ELDm ammo, still not broken in. When it’s hot out, ES always goes up.
View attachment 910423View attachment 910424

You may not have realized it yet, but I’m stealing this gun from you tomorrow morning

 

[Lawnboi]

Agree, the recoil difference is so minimal, I don't know why a person would weight that factor much if at all. And, rifle fit is one of the most underappreciated considerations.

Do you think the short 22 creed keeps velocity low enough that damage won't be too much?

Ultimately, 6 Dasher or 22 GT or anything close is gonna be great for a short barrel rifle.

I got rid of my 16” 22 creed because the range shoot most deer and antelope (sub 300) the damage was extreme. Like I was loosing front shoulder on both sides even if I was off of them extreme. The 77 tmk and 80eldx at 3k muzzle velocity was too much.

That said the 223, sending the same bullets at 2700, was enough damage without being extreme. I’d still, and still will shoot animals with my 223/77 tmk, especially deer in sub 400yd scenarios.

This part of why I went dasher. Not super fast as most of my shots tend to be closer than farther if I can make it happen.

I’m not sure I’d go below gt in the OPs 16” requirement, just because I don’t like pushing pressure to get velocity. That said Iv carried 16” suppressed rifles and 20” suppressed rifles and am not bothered by extra 4”.

But yea an 80eldx on a deer at 100 yards/3000fps impact is destructive! I’d have to know your 14” starting velocity to even guess but man those 77tmk and 80eldx are amazing little bullets.

For someone having to ask this I just think the BR cases are the easiest to wring out the most accuracy sub 600, with the least recoil while still being in a standard bolt face.

Amazing the choices we have today, and how far some of these options have come.

 

[Lawnboi]

What would be expected from a 6 Dasher with a 14” barrel and 108-109’s? 2,550-2,650 range?

Comfortably maybe not even that. I’m going to keep my 21” at 2750.

 

[TradLife406]

I got rid of my 16” 22 creed because the range shoot most deer and antelope (sub 300) the damage was extreme. Like I was loosing front shoulder on both sides even if I was off of them extreme. The 77 tmk and 80eldx at 3k muzzle velocity was too much.

That said the 223, sending the same bullets at 2700, was enough damage without being extreme. I’d still, and still will shoot animals with my 223/77 tmk, especially deer in sub 400yd scenarios.

This part of why I went dasher. Not super fast as most of my shots tend to be closer than farther if I can make it happen.

I’m not sure I’d go below gt in the OPs 16” requirement, just because I don’t like pushing pressure to get velocity. That said Iv carried 16” suppressed rifles and 20” suppressed rifles and am not bothered by extra 4”.

But yea an 80eldx on a deer at 100 yards/3000fps impact is destructive! I’d have to know your 14” starting velocity to even guess but man those 77tmk and 80eldx are amazing little bullets.

For someone having to ask this I just think the BR cases are the easiest to wring out the most accuracy sub 600, with the least recoil while still being in a standard bolt face.

Amazing the choices we have today, and how far some of these options have come.

Double checked my handgaurd length and current barrel length. Handgaurd is 14" current oem 6.5 creed barrel is 18.
I'd be down to go back to an 18 again essentially if it'd just simplify things when it came to ease of reloading ammo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Bobrobheimer]

I have a 16" in 6 Creedmoor running at 2675 with 108 elms. I see pressure signs when going hotter towards 2750.
I have tried several powders (N555, H4350, Varget) and landed on N150. I also saw the exo guys talk about using H4350 which is what I tried first but if you plug all this into something like GRT or Quickload you'll see these slower powders do not get full burn in a 16" barrel which is a problem to me. Unburnt powder results in wild ES and SDs and can also hurt accuracy
This probably the biggest consideration for me when thinking about using a shorter barrel.
There is a balance between optimal case fill and burn rate that has to be achieved to get consistent shooting ammo.
Extreme spreads of 50 fps + might be acceptable for you or others and if so then this will make load development easier for you.
It's true that will probably be easier to do load dev for other cartridges like GT or BRA, that are know for being very easy to find a good shooting load but that's also in the context of usually a 24" -28" barrel length in the competitive world, which is very very different than a 16".

I’ll put this on a similar thread but as this one is newer I will add it here. I have a question, but first my overall context: I’ve got a 16” 6CM and I am starting to hand load for after initially shooting factory Berger 105 hybrids for the brass. (With those I was only getting about 2570fsp). I am loading 90gr HHT with H4350. Hammer bullets seem to be fine with a significant jump and if I seat the bullet all the way to the last drive band it’s about .100” jump which again seems okay. (I hate to seat them with the neck in between the drive bands). I got up to about 2900fps and started getting some signs. I want to be above 1800fps at 500yards or better and don’t need to shoot animals further than that. I worked up two test groups so far in the low to mid 2800fps with good results. )

Anyway - accuracy aside from more or less jump - does one think that in a short barrel context it could be advantageous to seat a bullet deeper there by reducing case capacity and increasing pressure for a lower charge weight as opposed to seating further out to allow for a higher charge weight and similar pressure which in a longer barrel would generate faster speeds but in a shorter barrel doesn’t have the time to do so? Thoughts?

 

[tap_city]

I’ll put this on a similar thread but as this one is newer I will add it here. I have a question, but first my overall context: I’ve got a 16” 6CM and I am starting to hand load for after initially shooting factory Berger 105 hybrids for the brass. (With those I was only getting about 2570fsp). I am loading 90gr HHT with H4350. Hammer bullets seem to be fine with a significant jump and if I seat the bullet all the way to the last drive band it’s about .100” jump which again seems okay. (I hate to seat them with the neck in between the drive bands). I got up to about 2900fps and started getting some signs. I want to be above 1800fps at 500yards or better and don’t need to shoot animals further than that. I worked up two test groups so far in the low to mid 2800fps with good results. )

Anyway - accuracy aside from more or less jump - does one think that in a short barrel context it could be advantageous to seat a bullet deeper there by reducing case capacity and increasing pressure for a lower charge weight as opposed to seating further out to allow for a higher charge weight and similar pressure which in a longer barrel would generate faster speeds but in a shorter barrel doesn’t have the time to do so? Thoughts?

My question would be, what are you trying to achieve? If it's higher velocity, then yes, you could play with seating depth to increase pressure. But how much will you gain? .100 thou deeper may only net you an increase of 40fps, is that enough?

For me, faster powders result in more consistent SDs vs. slower powders which take advantage of the longer barrel to build more pressure. At 500yds Having tight SDs probably doesn't matter that much. I've heard top PRS guys also mention similar things in terms of consistency (average velocity) with faster powders, even their longer 26"+ barrels.


But again, I think it comes down to, what is you're trying to achieve? There a lot of things that can be manipulated to arrive at a specific outcome.

 

[mtnbound]

I’ll put this on a similar thread but as this one is newer I will add it here. I have a question, but first my overall context: I’ve got a 16” 6CM and I am starting to hand load for after initially shooting factory Berger 105 hybrids for the brass. (With those I was only getting about 2570fsp). I am loading 90gr HHT with H4350. Hammer bullets seem to be fine with a significant jump and if I seat the bullet all the way to the last drive band it’s about .100” jump which again seems okay. (I hate to seat them with the neck in between the drive bands). I got up to about 2900fps and started getting some signs. I want to be above 1800fps at 500yards or better and don’t need to shoot animals further than that. I worked up two test groups so far in the low to mid 2800fps with good results. )

Anyway - accuracy aside from more or less jump - does one think that in a short barrel context it could be advantageous to seat a bullet deeper there by reducing case capacity and increasing pressure for a lower charge weight as opposed to seating further out to allow for a higher charge weight and similar pressure which in a longer barrel would generate faster speeds but in a shorter barrel doesn’t have the time to do so? Thoughts?

I'm not sure of your goal, but IMO, experimenting with faster-burning powders would be more beneficial than chasing bullet seating depths if speed is your primary goal from a short barrel.

 

[wind gypsy]

Anyway - accuracy aside from more or less jump - does one think that in a short barrel context it could be advantageous to seat a bullet deeper there by reducing case capacity and increasing pressure for a lower charge weight as opposed to seating further out to allow for a higher charge weight and similar pressure which in a longer barrel would generate faster speeds but in a shorter barrel doesn’t have the time to do so? Thoughts?

I think you're off in the weeds. A longer seating closer to the lands might increase pressure too.. Personally I'd rather avoid stuffing a bullet deep in the case when possible to minimize compressed loads and inconsistent seating force, amongst other reasons.

Some graphics i've pulled off the internets in the past: