Shooting School Recommendation?

[Colby]

I went to modern day snipers rifle hunter class a few years ago.
I feel like I got quite a bit from it as it was my fist formal rifle training. There were quite a few details about the actual fundamentals that were quite helpful. For me it was kind of a case of you don’t know what you don’t know.
That have a real cool range in eastern Washington that gets real windy.
I thought it was time and money well spent.

 

[Megalodon]

I'll take every chance I get to recommend Colorado Precision Rifle and Brian Whalen. https://www.cprifle.com/

It isn't hunting based but everything relates. I went in with a probably above average understanding of fundamentals/ballistics/etc. just from reading and forums, but the way Brian presented the course and the range time really brought everything together. From just the level 1 course my confidence level went up 100%. I was able to take those two days and then train and understand what was going on and ended up doing some PRS style regional matches in CO/WY.

I haven't done the level 2 class, but that is supposed to be more positional, and I have no doubt Brian would be able to skew that hunting based positions vs PRS style. One of his big things is the steel safari which is all hunting simulation. In my level 1 we had me, a hunter, a SWAT sniper, and a younger kid looking to branch out from 3 gun.

Blue Steel Ranch is a pretty awesome place, definitely stay in the bunk house. And just in general Brian is a really cool, super knowledgeable dude.

 

[SDHNTR]

Theoretical question… why don’t we have a lot of hunting based woodsmanship schools too? I’ve never heard of one, yet shooting schools are a dime a dozen! Shooting is one important skill, but it’s far from the only one needed to be a successful hunter. Why is there so much focus on pure shooting, ballistics and tactical skills? I’m guilty of it too, but as hunters, methinks we’re losing focus on what’s really important. You gotta find the critter, navigate and survive in the woods before you can shoot it. Woodsmanship first, shooting second, distant second. We don’t need any more tactikooks and wannabe Rambo’s in the woods using live animals for target practice. JMO.

 

[Formidilosus]

Theoretical question… why don’t we have a lot of hunting based woodsmanship schools too? I’ve never heard of one, yet shooting schools are a dime a dozen!

There a lot of bushcraft and field skill courses. Name a solid shooting course tailored to hunting rifles?

Shooting is one important skill, but it’s far from the only one needed to be a successful hunter. Why is there so much focus on pure shooting, ballistics and tactical skills?

Because people are way, way better at putting a pack on and camping than they are at hitting things.

I’m guilty of it too, but as hunters, methinks we’re losing focus on what’s really important. You gotta find the critter, navigate and survive in the woods before you can shoot it. Woodsmanship first, shooting second, distant second. We don’t need any more tactikooks and wannabe Rambo’s in the woods using live animals for target practice. JMO.

I disagree 100%. If I suck at finding game, I just suck at finding game. Guns are lethal instruments. If I suck at shooting and gun handling; some thing or someone pays the price for my incompetence.
Almost all the nonsense I see every year revolves around pure gun handling and shooting. Americans are extremely poor shooters on average. As a country we like to make a lot of noise and blast, but measured as a whole, probably the worst base shooting skills of any western nation. I hunted mostly nonstop in several states from mid September to now, and there isn’t a single conversation I overheard or participated in, where at least one person didn’t miss, wound, and or lose an animal.

 

[SDHNTR]

There a lot of bushcraft and field skill courses. Name a solid shooting course tailored to hunting rifles?




Because people are way, way better at putting a pack on and camping than they are at hitting things.




I disagree 100%. If I suck at finding game, I just suck at finding game. Guns are lethal instruments. If I suck at shooting and gun handling; some thing or someone pays the price for my incompetence.
Almost all the nonsense I see every year revolves around pure gun handling and shooting. Americans are extremely poor shooters on average. As a country we like to make a lot of noise and blast, but measured as a whole, probably the worst base shooting skills of any western nation. I hunted mostly nonstop in several states from mid September to now, and there isn’t a single conversation I overheard or participated in, where at least one person didn’t miss, wound, and or lose an animal.

Agree to disagree Form. Although I don’t actually disagree with most of what you just said.

I think being a good glasser, a good tracker, a good caller, and intimately knowing the habits of your quarry is a far more important skill set than being able to shoot 1000 yards. I’ve said it before, measuring what it takes to be a successful hunter, I’ll take the crusty old trapper with his M70 over the YouTube Rambo with his chassis gun and flush cups. Or a good Bowhunter over a good tactical shooter dropped in the woods anyday!

 

[Formidilosus]

Agree to disagree Form.

I think being a good glasser, a good tracker and intimately knowing the habits of your quarry is a far more important skill set than being able to shoot 1000 yards. I’ve said it before, measuring what it takes to be a successful hunter, I’ll take the crusty old trapper with his M70 over the YouTube Rambo with his chassis gun and flush cups. Or a good Bowhunter over a good tactical shooter dropped in the woods anyday!

I don’t understand your examples? I have hunted in a significant amount of the states on public land and have only seen on or two “tactical rambos”. But of every ten hunters I meet, one (if that) out of ten even has any sort of zero on their rifle. Who is talking about 1,000 yard deer shots? I’m literally talking about being safe and competent with a normal rifle. Everyone talks about how public ranges are a zoo and it is extremely rare to run into a single hunter there that has even a base idea of what they are doing.

As an example, Colorado does an elk reduction hunt most years with a shooting test required to pass to get to hunt. It’s three shots from kneeling (rests and tripods are allowed) at 200 yards, and three shots prone at 300 yards. Hit all 6 to qualify for the hunt. Most people selected don’t even show up to try once they find out what the test is. Of those that do show, most fail. The target is 12x14 inches at 200 and 300 yards. Think about that- of all the hunters being boiled down, still very few can pass that. I was told this year that only about 20% of the hunters even showed up passed it. We have a marksmanship problem in the US. Well, we have a lot of problems- but a big one is just standard average marksmanship.

 

[prm]

Haven’t really looked closely into shooting schools, but when I do I see a focus on bench or prone shooting with the emphasis on range. Fine, but not for me. I’m successful most years, and have never had to shoot over 200 yds. Lying prone waiting for an animal to appear 600, 800 yds or whatever has no appeal to me. I’d rather be lethal, with very limited shooting support, on a muley moving through the Aspens at 150yds, or at 300/400 yds with no way to get prone. That’s the niche of hunting marksmanship that intrigues me. Purely personal preference, don’t want to get the LR folks upset… Just one hunter’s opinion on what a hunting shooting school would focus. If there’s one like that I could be interested. I do really enjoy shooting steel at much longer ranges.

 

[SDHNTR]

I don’t understand your examples? I have hunted in a significant amount of the states on public land and have only seen on or two “tactical rambos”. But of every ten hunters I meet, one (if that) out of ten even has any sort of zero on their rifle. Who is talking about 1,000 yard deer shots? I’m literally talking about being safe and competent with a normal rifle. Everyone talks about how public ranges are a zoo and it is extremely rare to run into a single hunter there that has even a base idea of what they are doing.

As an example, Colorado does an elk reduction hunt most years with a shooting test required to pass to get to hunt. It’s three shots from kneeling (rests and tripods are allowed) at 200 yards, and three shots prone at 300 yards. Hit all 6 to qualify for the hunt. Most people selected don’t even show up to try once they find out what the test is. Of those that do show, most fail. The target is 12x14 inches at 200 and 300 yards. Think about that- of all the hunters being boiled down, still very few can pass that. I was told this year that only about 20% of the hunters even showed up passed it. We have a marksmanship problem in the US. Well, we have a lot of problems- but a big one is just standard average marksmanship.

Yeah that’s pretty lousy. We are actually saying some similar things I think. You think many hunters lack shooting skills. I don’t disagree. I think many shooters lack woodsmanship skills. My guess is you’d probably agree with that too. I think a mediocre shooter but an exceptional woodsman is a more effective overall hunter than the other way around. That’s all I’m saying.

Since you asked…. I take it you haven’t seen an opening day of deer season in California. I see many dudes with specialized tactical guns, usually cheat carried, monster scopes with big old dials and Kestrels. Thigh and ankle holsters with sidearms. Tactical vests full of spare mags. Big, black belt knives. It’s crazy. All you hear is chatter about clanging steel at 1000 yards and dialing this and that. Yet not a one could identify a buck from a doe track, name a primary deer forage source, or the nearest spring, or know where to lol to glass up a bedded buck mid morning. That’s my point.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yeah that’s pretty lousy. We are actually saying some similar things I think. You think many hunters lack shooting skills. I don’t disagree. I think many shooters lack woodsmanship skills. My guess is you’d probably agree with that too. I think a mediocre shooter but an exceptional woodsman is a more effective overall hunter than the other way around. That’s all I’m saying.

Oh there’s no doubt. I was just explaining why there are shooting schools- guns are lethal and are not something used everyday or even consistently by almost anyone. However, hiking, camping, even orienteering is relatively common for most people that do outdoor things. There’s no doubt that a lot are lost on woodsmanship as well, it’s just that people can generally practice starting a fire in their backyard. Not many people can practice shooting in theirs.

Since you asked…. I take it you haven’t seen an opening day of deer season in California. I see many dudes with specialized tactical guns, usually cheat carried, monster scopes with big old dials and Kestrels. Thigh and ankle holsters with sidearms. Tactical vests full of spare mags. Big, black belt knives. It’s crazy. All you hear is chatter about clanging steel at 1000 yards and dialing this and that. Yet not a one could identify a buck from a doe track, name a primary deer forage source, or the nearest spring, or know where to lol to glass up a bedded buck mid morning. That’s my point.

I haven’t done a lot of hunting in CA, but that doesn’t surprise me either. Those people are going to be there, so I don’t really care if they know what a deer track is- I do really care that they competently use their rifles.

 

[BRTreedogs]

From listening to there podcast MDS, seem like cool knowledge guys that want to teach skills.

But they say every class has one or 2 guns that are a nightmare and they spend a ton of time sorting out. And I think they make you strip your optics and remount before that even.

Gunwerks provides the rifle, ammo, and everyone is suppressed. I bet if flows much smoother in that regard.

 

[SDHNTR]

I guess what really bothers me are all these “hunters” who hit the field and think all they need is their cool looking tactical whacking stick, a Brian Litz book and the latest gizmos to take critters at 789 yards. Animals, wild country, and the reputation of our sport deserve more.

 

[Formidilosus]

I guess what really bothers me are all these “hunters” who hit the field and think all they need is their cool looking tactical whacking stick, a Brian Litz book and the latest gizmos to take critters at 789 yards. Animals, wild country, and the reputation of our sport deserve more.

I agree. And on the other side there are just as many “I am a real hunter” but don’t have a zeroed rifle, shoot running animals, wound often, and don’t follow up. All the stupid crap I’ve seen in the west has been from “normal” hunters- that is flock shooting, blasting at running animals, shooting from a vehicle, etc.

Both ways are embarrassing. Why is it that there is not an expectation of actual skill in shooting, packing, tracking, and field skills in general? I don’t care if someone hunts at 800 yards or at 80- just take it seriously and have some actual skill.

 

[DRUSS]

I have attended a couple-MOA Rifles advanced class and Defensive Edge Class. I enjoyed both. Another I've looked at that sounded more hunting focused was Darrel Hollands class. I believe he's building a new facility in Montana currently.

 

[SDHNTR]

I agree. And on the other side there are just as many “I am a real hunter” but don’t have a zeroed rifle, shoot running animals, wound often, and don’t follow up. All the stupid crap I’ve seen in the west has been from “normal” hunters- that is flock shooting, blasting at running animals, shooting from a vehicle, etc.

Both ways are embarrassing. Why is it that there is not an expectation of actual skill in shooting, packing, tracking, and field skills in general? I don’t care if someone hunts at 800 yards or at 80- just take it seriously and have some actual skill.

First paragraph: I don’t see many of those honestly. But I also refuse to associate with anyone who might demonstrate any such traits.

Second paragraph, especially last sentence: AMEN!

 

[Dobermann]

Some reference points:

If you haven't taken a course at all, I'd highly recommend purchasing Jacob Bynum's DVDs: https://riflesonly.com/shop-all/instructional-dvds/

Disk 1 covers the fundamentals, while Disk 2 covers field positions.

Then purchase "Long Range Shooting From Scracth" that @THLR was involved in: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/37429/126714889 (I know Thomas has since said it's old, but there's still a lot of gold in it!)

Then watch all of THLR's free vidoes on YouTube ... that will keep you going for weeks over winter! (https://www.youtube.com/@THLR)

While I personally believe nothing beats one-on-one observation and correction, there's a LOT that can be learnt from the above.

As for courses, as mentioned above Caylen and Phil from Modern Day Sniper / Modern Day Rifleman do a hunter course (https://moderndaysniper.com/in-person-courses/technical-rifle-hunter/).

Frank has recently teamed up with Chris Way to offer tailored Riflekraft USA training - Frank covers fundamentals, and Chris covers decision-making under stress, streamlining gear/rifle manipulation, and so on. This is informed by competition, but I'm sure would be completely applicable to hunting. [Edit: Chris now offers a Mountain Hunter Assessment: https://riflekraft.myshopify.com/collections/all?page=1]

And the "OG", Jacob Bynum, offers not only precision rifle fundamentals classes, but also positional, field craft, and land nav: https://riflesonly.com/classes/

Finally, Aron has been talking recently about setting a kind of Kifaru University that covers field craft, sign, tracking, land nav, calling, and so on.

Personally, I want to take a lot more courses. The one LR course I did drilled us on fundamentals on day 1 (and much of that on "only" a .22). For the start of day 2, we all had to, one at a time, cold bore/cold shooter, drop down and do the THLR Challenge: get behind the rifle, dial up dope, and hit a plate at 500 metres. No warm up of any kind allowed. No sighters. No second chances. One shot, one hit, pass or fail ...

Even after a quiet beer or two the night before, sleeping in uncomfortable hut beds, and losing some sleep due to staying up too late and/or snoring by classmates ... we all hit that 500 metre target first time.

I doubt any of us could have done that only 24 hours before, let alone the whole class ... it confirmed for me the value of good, solid training.

(And for what it's worth, the teacher recommended we study Jacob and Thomas's videos before attending the face-to-face training.)

 

[SDHNTR]

Some reference points:

If you haven't taken a course at all, I'd highly recommend purchasing Jacob Bynum's DVDs: https://riflesonly.com/shop-all/instructional-dvds/

Disk 1 covers the fundamentals, while Disk 2 covers field positions.

Then purchase "Long Range Shooting From Scracth" that @THLR was involved in: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/37429/126714889 (I know Thomas has since said it's old, but there's still a lot of gold in it!)

Then watch all of THLR's free vidoes on YouTube ... that will keep you going for weeks over winter! (https://www.youtube.com/@THLR)

While I personally believe nothing beats one-on-one observation and correction, there's a LOT that can be learnt from the above.

As for courses, as mentioned above Caylen and Phil from Modern Day Sniper / Modern Day Rifleman do a hunter course (https://moderndaysniper.com/in-person-courses/technical-rifle-hunter/).

Frank has recently teamed up with Chris Way to offer tailored Riflekraft USA training - Frank covers fundamentals, and Chris covers decision-making under stress, streamlining gear/rifle manipulation, and so on. This is informed by competition, but I'm sure would be completely applicable to hunting. [Edit: Chris now offers a Mountain Hunter Assessment: https://riflekraft.myshopify.com/collections/all?page=1]

And the "OG", Jacob Bynum, offers not only precision rifle fundamentals classes, but also positional, field craft, and land nav: https://riflesonly.com/classes/

Finally, Aron has been talking recently about setting a kind of Kifaru University that covers field craft, sign, tracking, land nav, calling, and so on.

Personally, I want to take a lot more courses. The one LR course I did drilled us on fundamentals on day 1 (and much of that on "only" a .22). For the start of day 2, we all had to, one at a time, cold bore/cold shooter, drop down and do the THLR Challenge: get behind the rifle, dial up dope, and hit a plate at 500 metres. No warm up of any kind allowed. No sighters. No second chances. One shot, one hit, pass or fail ...

Even after a quiet beer or two the night before, sleeping in uncomfortable hut beds, and losing some sleep due to staying up too late and/or snoring by classmates ... we all hit that 500 metre target first time.

I doubt any of us could have done that only 24 hours before, let alone the whole class ... it confirmed for me the value of good, solid training.

(And for what it's worth, the teacher recommended we study Jacob and Thomas's videos before attending the face-to-face training.)

That Modern Day Sniper dude just did a Meateater video comparing copper to lead bullets. Minor point, but Personally, he lost hunting credibility in my mind by repeatedly calling the Berger bullet a complete failure for coming apart after penetration. Displaying a complete lack of understanding of how Bergers are supposed to work.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Hat Creek Training. SF dude and one of the view outfits that has the facility to cover high angle shooting and cross canyon shooting/wind reading like you’ll experience in back country hunting.

If you want to learn to hit targets on a square mostly flat range to be better in PRS there’s dozens of great courses but for hunting 100% Hat Creek.

 

[dingle]

I don’t understand your examples? I have hunted in a significant amount of the states on public land and have only seen on or two “tactical rambos”. But of every ten hunters I meet, one (if that) out of ten even has any sort of zero on their rifle. Who is talking about 1,000 yard deer shots? I’m literally talking about being safe and competent with a normal rifle. Everyone talks about how public ranges are a zoo and it is extremely rare to run into a single hunter there that has even a base idea of what they are doing.

As an example, Colorado does an elk reduction hunt most years with a shooting test required to pass to get to hunt. It’s three shots from kneeling (rests and tripods are allowed) at 200 yards, and three shots prone at 300 yards. Hit all 6 to qualify for the hunt. Most people selected don’t even show up to try once they find out what the test is. Of those that do show, most fail. The target is 12x14 inches at 200 and 300 yards. Think about that- of all the hunters being boiled down, still very few can pass that. I was told this year that only about 20% of the hunters even showed up passed it. We have a marksmanship problem in the US. Well, we have a lot of problems- but a big one is just standard average marksmanship.

One in ten has a zeroed rifle? Really? What else could there be? I'm really asking. This sounds insane to me.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

One in ten has a zeroed rifle? Really? What else could there be? I'm really asking. This sounds insane to me.

You would be surprised if you knew how a lot of hunters “zero” their rifles, the pie plate zero isn’t just a saying. They will literally put a pie plate on a tree or whatnot and if they hit it from like a whopping 20 yards (but 200 in fudd speak) it’s zero’d and they’re ready to go wound game. There’s also a lot of them that will bring them to gun stores and have the “gunsmith” who’s usually barely qualified to install scope flip covers bore sight their rifle and they head to the woods without firing a single shot.

It’s astounding how many irresponsible clueless people roam the woods during hunting season.

There are a lot of responsible hunters too, but **** if the fudds and bubbas aren’t terrifying to be in the woods with.

 

[wind gypsy]

Hat creek in ID is the most intriguing one that I’ve seen.

I’ve done frank Galli’s intro to precision rifle and think it’s a pretty good basis to build off of but it’s mostly making sure you understand fundamentals and have your equipment dialed to build off of. Most people don’t get that part right on their own IMO.