Shoot2Hunt University

[benconfused]

I just watched a recent Youtube video of a group that were training at the highly regarded Hat Creek Facility. After a few days shooting with Form at our informal S2H class here in Alaska, it is blatantly apparent how bad most training is. On the Hat Creek video, the Spotter - Shooter communication is horrible. Maybe the instructors know better, but what good is training if you are not going to do it in a way that makes you more efficient and effective in the field?

Also, the habits and shot process that the students were allowed to follow were horrible as well. No racking of the bolt as soon as possible, ignoring the turret and safety, coming out of the gun and looking back without even ejecting the case. It's like watching amateur hour, once you have gone through even one S2H class.

Can you share the link for this video? (Or send to me in DM if you don't want to publicize it)

 

[Q_Sertorius]

The “not chambering a follow-up shot” is one of the more obvious signs that someone has not been practicing for hunting situations. It’s muscle memory that is built, or not built, in dry fire and range sessions.

I remember seeing it in one of Backfire’s videos of his kid shooting some African critter and being a bit less than impressed with him as a Dad for failing to teach it.

I used to use a lovely little Martini action .22 for all my rimfire practice. It seemed like a great way to methodically practice well-aimed single shots. And it was... But then I realized that I was treating my bolt action rifle the same as my Martini: taking it down from my shoulder and watching the spent shell eject and chambering another one. So, I got a CZ 457 so I could practice muscle memory of cycling the bolt for the immediate follow-up shot.

I also got a pair of snap caps for each rifle so I could practice the shot and follow-up in my dry fire sessions.

 

[mtnbound]

These bad habits should not be surprising when it’s still the more supported belief that one has to use large caliber heavy recoiling rifles that cause the loss of follow through, the loss of positioning, and the loss of target visibility so the the habit of head up, target evaluation and then reengagement becomes a habit that is never addressed.

The thing that I find interesting is when guys teach their wife, girlfriend or kids to shoot it’s with lighter recoiling rifles and they often shoot better than them but they still can’t see the benefits for themselves I call that MPS (Male Pride Syndrome).

 

[Deadspace]

The thing that I find interesting is when guys teach their wife, girlfriend or kids to shoot it’s with lighter recoiling rifles and they often shoot better than them but they still can’t see the benefits for themselves I call that MPS (Male Pride Syndrome).

Right? That and how a small cartridge is good enough for elk when a kid or woman shoots it but isn’t good enough for a man. I’ve now killed elk and moose with my 6 creed and I’m not underguned at all.

 

[Te Hopo]

The “not chambering a follow-up shot” is one of the more obvious signs that someone has not been practicing for hunting situations. It’s muscle memory that is built, or not built, in dry fire and range sessions.

I remember seeing it in one of Backfire’s videos of his kid shooting some African critter and being a bit less than impressed with him as a Dad for failing to teach it.

I used to use a lovely little Martini action .22 for all my rimfire practice. It seemed like a great way to methodically practice well-aimed single shots. And it was... But then I realized that I was treating my bolt action rifle the same as my Martini: taking it down from my shoulder and watching the spent shell eject and chambering another one. So, I got a CZ 457 so I could practice muscle memory of cycling the bolt for the immediate follow-up shot.

I also got a pair of snap caps for each rifle so I could practice the shot and follow-up in my dry fire sessions.

100% agreed, I was encouraged to dry fire practice which is good for trigger control, but the real improvement was when I got some .223 snap caps and combined dry fire with racking the action smoothly and quickly.

 

[NSI]

Can you share the link for this video? (Or send to me in DM if you don't want to publicize it)

Credit to the instructors for "saying" the right things (like at 16:25) but a part of what makes it instruction and not advice is actually getting the student to "do" the right things. The whole video is pretty maddening if you're familiar with best practices.

-J

 

[Wprinkle]

Credit to the instructors for "saying" the right things (like at 16:25) but a part of what makes it instruction and not advice is actually getting the student to "do" the right things. The whole video is pretty maddening if you're familiar with best practices.

-J

I'm gonna say a lot of what is shown in this video is taken out of context... I promise the "student" shown most often in the clip knows more about communication, weapon systems and be fast and efficient under time and pressure than 99.9% of everyone on this forum... Granted vast majority of it was not with a bolt gun....

 

[NSI]

I'm gonna say a lot of what is shown in this video is taken out of context... I promise the "student" shown most often in the clip knows more about communication, weapon systems and be fast and efficient under time and pressure than 99.9% of everyone on this forum... Granted vast majority of it was not with a bolt gun....

Stopping short of doxxing myself, I'm familiar with the GBRS shooters. Their practices in a shoot house and on the flat range indeed look like the product of 10,000 hours of practice. Those practices hold up under the pressure that defined their honorable careers.

What you're seeing here is that basic precision rifle habits built over thousands of rounds of correct practice (NPA, building positions, running the bolt, recoil control, observing through the scope rather than prairie dogging, dozens more) do not magically appear in one discipline of shooting simply because their analogues exist in another discipline of shooting.

-J

 

[Wprinkle]

Stopping short of doxxing myself, I'm familiar with the GBRS shooters. Their practices in a shoot house and on the flat range indeed look like the product of 10,000 hours of practice. Those practices hold up under the pressure that defined their honorable careers.

What you're seeing here is that basic precision rifle habits built over thousands of rounds of correct practice (NPA, building positions, running the bolt, recoil control, observing through the scope rather than prairie dogging, dozens more) do not magically appear in one discipline of shooting simply because their analogues exist in another discipline of shooting.

-J

Agree.. Also agree that what was shown is very sub-par. But.. Im suggestesting take the video at face value and not a representation of the product. And I could be completely wrong (I usually am) and that is their "product." Maybe its exactly like shooting golf balls at 1,000 with know clue how or why you finally hit it schools. lol

 

[NSI]

Agree.. Also agree that what was shown is very sub-par. But.. Im suggestesting take the video at face value and not a representation of the product. And I could be completely wrong (I usually am) and that is there "product." Maybe its exactly like shooting golf balls at 1,000 with know clue how or why you finally hit it schools. lol

I wouldn't discourage anyone from going to Hat Creek. It's a wonderful place to learn about calling wind in broken environments.

-J

 

[wind gypsy]

Agree.. Also agree that what was shown is very sub-par. But.. Im suggestesting take the video at face value and not a representation of the product. And I could be completely wrong (I usually am) and that is there "product." Maybe its exactly like shooting golf balls at 1,000 with know clue how or why you finally hit it schools. lol

LOL. The golf ball reference! Knew not to recommend that school when I saw training to shoot a golf ball at a 1000 yards mentioned in that marketing media.

 

[RockAndSage]

What you're seeing here is that basic precision rifle habits built over thousands of rounds of correct practice (NPA, building positions, running the bolt, recoil control, observing through the scope rather than prairie dogging, dozens more) do not magically appear in one discipline of shooting simply because their analogues exist in another discipline of shooting.

-J

So true.

Two things have increasingly stood out to me over the last 3 decades on this subject: 1) Just how siloed certain shooting and work orbits/traditions/schools/fields, etc can still be from each other, and 2) just how inappropriate some core things in one field can be to another, and how that can cause a legit pro from one field/team, etc to be somewhat incompetent or even dangerous if they're put in an entirely different operating reality without mentally re-tooling for that new world. Especially when they're "teaching" to a different reality than their students exist in. What's been particularly interesting is how some fields/branches/teams enculture for mental flexibility as a marker of professionalism, while others almost seem to promote uniformity of thinking.

 

[mt terry d]

I wouldn't mind the helicopter ride up the mountain.

 

[benconfused]

The “not chambering a follow-up shot” is one of the more obvious signs that someone has not been practicing for hunting situations. It’s muscle memory that is built, or not built, in dry fire and range sessions.

I remember seeing it in one of Backfire’s videos of his kid shooting some African critter and being a bit less than impressed with him as a Dad for failing to teach it.

I used to use a lovely little Martini action .22 for all my rimfire practice. It seemed like a great way to methodically practice well-aimed single shots. And it was... But then I realized that I was treating my bolt action rifle the same as my Martini: taking it down from my shoulder and watching the spent shell eject and chambering another one. So, I got a CZ 457 so I could practice muscle memory of cycling the bolt for the immediate follow-up shot.

I also got a pair of snap caps for each rifle so I could practice the shot and follow-up in my dry fire sessions.

Sorry- what do the snap caps do in a dry fire practice, to protect the firing pin or another reason?

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Sorry- what do the snap caps do in a dry fire practice, to protect the firing pin or another reason?

They protect the firing pin and feed just like live rounds. So you can be sure that you aren’t working the bolt too weakly for proper ejection or short stroking the bolt to cause feeding problems. Apart from the bang and the recoil, it’s as close as you can get.

 

[RockAndSage]

Sorry- what do the snap caps do in a dry fire practice, to protect the firing pin or another reason?

In addition to dry-fire, they're excellent to mix into your live-fire practice as well - nothing will reveal flinch or recoil anticipation faster. Which often goes unrealized during live-fire, because of the recoil. They help keep you focused on your fundamentals, and reveal when you're slipping.

This is about 50 snap-caps mixed in across about 300 rounds of 9mm live-fire, randomly in each mag:

 

[Q_Sertorius]

In addition to dry-fire, they're excellent to mix into your live-fire practice as well - nothing will reveal flinch or recoil anticipation faster. Which often goes unrealized during live-fire, because of the recoil. They help keep you focused on your fundamentals, and reveal when you're slipping.

This is about 50 snap-caps mixed in across about 300 rounds of 9mm live-fire, randomly in each mag:


View attachment 939469

Yes, when I am shooting a cartridge with relatively heavy recoil, I often will put two snap caps and five live rounds into my coat pocket. Then load my box magazine without looking. Makes for a pretty good way to see if I am starting to anticipate the recoil.

 

[benconfused]

Yes, when I am shooting a cartridge with relatively heavy recoil, I often will put two snap caps and five live rounds into my coat pocket. Then load my box magazine without looking. Makes for a pretty good way to see if I am starting to anticipate the recoil.

What brand snap caps do you guys like for rifle? I do remember practicing with these in pistol classes a long time ago. I don't know why "snap caps" didn't register in my brain as dummy rounds when I read this earlier.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

What brand snap caps do you guys like for rifle? I do remember practicing with these in pistol classes a long time ago. I don't know why "snap caps" didn't register in my brain as dummy rounds when I read this earlier.

A-Zoom is what I have.