Excellent! Now I don’t have to make a stupid video lol.
Don’t need no rear bag - S2H University
- Thread starter Randonee
- Start date
I know the bino rest works. And I tested it without taking it off. It’s clearly fast and effective.
There are those who poo poo it VS their bags and they don’t train hard with enough variation to understand. They may be in denial and ignorance, so they need to do the timed drills honestly and see where their skill is with a bag before making a judgement.
Then, maybe there are the rare few who train hard with their gear including a bag, and “don’t get it” because they can perform with their gear and practice.
Either way, arguing blanket statements is silly to me. I can usually see both sides, and find where I agree with both sides.
Obviously, I sell ultralight bags that Form is telling you that you don’t need. Unfortunately, it’s true. You don’t necessarily need one.
On the other hand… I want to sell you a bag. So, I will explain my difference in opinion. Hopefully you will understand that I don’t think anyone is wrong.
I hope you understand why you can keep your bag, and that you can become a killer with the same skills and proficiency as non-baggers. You may understand there is a reason why a bag is an important and indispensable tool, for you. It could help you explain it to others and eliminate doubt about its use.
I think that Forms positions are always reasonable, and almost universally data driven, result oriented, and consistent with proven marksmanship principles. But, because it is outside the norm, it can drive people nuts and they fight the idea without addressing the data known to Form. He is also misunderstood widely. And, I get the sense that he doesn’t have time for nonsense and nuance.
Many just don’t understand cause reading stuff and explaining stuff on the internet is hard. I am at fault there at times. Then there are trolls.
Whenever I “disagree” with Form, and this is one of those times, it is not usually about the underlying principle, but some offshoot that adopts a different assumption, different value on outcome, or different situation.
We know all general rules have exceptions. Here, I will adopt Forms rules as the general rule that should apply to everyone evenly. And, I actually believe it to be true.
The value of knowing exceptions can only come if you know the basic rules, and the exceptions are actually not in conflict with the general rule because they apply to a very small substantive change in the underlying situation that the general rule is being applied to.
For some, perhaps the demonstration of the bino method will solve a misunderstanding by those who can’t picture it. As I understand the method, functionally it is a gap filler and creates a base for the offhand to then adjust elevation with the firm support on top of the top object. The stock may or may not rest on the chosen object.
As far as the bag, I will review my position as an exception: that a rear bag can practically be as fast and effective. First let’s look at Forms justified and evidence based point that he repeatedly he sees shooters who can’t effectively use their bag on his tests, even though they say they can.
Self deception is a universal flaw because humans have a mechanism to lie to themselves. Hence, the value in repetition of “we suck” as a foundational principle from Form. I agree. But, that is not relevant to analysis of the bag/no bag comparison.
I believe that the large numbers of dudes can’t keep track of gear and time out on the test. I also believe that those dudes still suck at the same rate as non bag guys. The bags are irrelevant variable if you suck.
I believe the common denominator for those that suck is the failure to practice appropriate skills in similar conditions to the test.
Failure with a bag and failure without a bag derive from the same error—sucking at the fundamentals of marksmanship. So, in Forms class, merely giving a sucky shooter a bag cannot help him, it can add complexity to a task he already sucks at. I don’t think a bag is necessary to accomplish his goal consistent with the class outcomes and his observations.
Learning that marksmanship is not about the gear is important. It is not the same as gear always detracts from marksmanship.
Practically speaking, I think that training has to start from the fundamentals up. And, the S2H method and class curriculum as I understand it is among the best for training riflemen to kill that I know of for hunters.
And, asking a sucky shooter to include the act of storing a bag and then deploying it might add a complexity that would impede the quick level of improvement in a class focused on fundamentals. So adding a rear bag to the S2H method is unnecessary to its goal, and possibly/likely counter productive because it doesn’t fit with Form’s flow. It certainly might detract from his message that it’s the shooter not the gear…
Here is a though experiment, what happens if another class kept it just as simple, but taught how to store and deploy a bag in an effective manner, and otherwise did as many rounds and reps as the S2H?
Would the addition of a bag make them less lethal, irregardless of a few seconds more?
Would the addition of an easy to deploy bag add any time if it offset the time needed to adjust the harness? Or, find a suitable rock or stick within reach?
Are there brain/physical types that will benefit from a bag derived system more than the Form system?
Would the faster adjustability of the bag for elevation offset any increase in deployment time?
Is a possible increase of lethality with a bag a suitable justification to add say 3-5 more seconds to the time to eliminate timing out? Would the extra three seconds also improve the non bag equally?
In the end, I think the reason I will always use a bag is for benefits that I am willing to gain for mere seconds in penalty. And, I am already carrying it for situations that fall outside the “Form drop and kill drill.”
Another justification is that if it truly comes down to those seconds, I personally don’t know that I would feel comfortable with that shot in a moment where the small time differential is in play. It’s partly a brain focus thing. But, I may change my view and understanding if I practiced it. I just don’t know.
And, make your choice, and remember it’s based on your reasons.
And, yes, today, I probably fail on Forms timed tests, and score low even on the untimed. I know I suck at the standing and kneeling unsupported cause I haven’t practiced it at all.
But, give me a tripod and some bags, and I can kill stuff based on the locations and hunting style I have employed and learned. I don’t need to be fast, but I want to be so I will be practicing.
@Bluumoon can tell you how I sucked at the drills and used the most time on the stages we shot. I hope he also shares who scored the most hits in our fun competition…
There are those who poo poo it VS their bags and they don’t train hard with enough variation to understand. They may be in denial and ignorance, so they need to do the timed drills honestly and see where their skill is with a bag before making a judgement.
Then, maybe there are the rare few who train hard with their gear including a bag, and “don’t get it” because they can perform with their gear and practice.
Either way, arguing blanket statements is silly to me. I can usually see both sides, and find where I agree with both sides.
Obviously, I sell ultralight bags that Form is telling you that you don’t need. Unfortunately, it’s true. You don’t necessarily need one.
On the other hand… I want to sell you a bag. So, I will explain my difference in opinion. Hopefully you will understand that I don’t think anyone is wrong.
I hope you understand why you can keep your bag, and that you can become a killer with the same skills and proficiency as non-baggers. You may understand there is a reason why a bag is an important and indispensable tool, for you. It could help you explain it to others and eliminate doubt about its use.
I think that Forms positions are always reasonable, and almost universally data driven, result oriented, and consistent with proven marksmanship principles. But, because it is outside the norm, it can drive people nuts and they fight the idea without addressing the data known to Form. He is also misunderstood widely. And, I get the sense that he doesn’t have time for nonsense and nuance.
Many just don’t understand cause reading stuff and explaining stuff on the internet is hard. I am at fault there at times. Then there are trolls.
Whenever I “disagree” with Form, and this is one of those times, it is not usually about the underlying principle, but some offshoot that adopts a different assumption, different value on outcome, or different situation.
We know all general rules have exceptions. Here, I will adopt Forms rules as the general rule that should apply to everyone evenly. And, I actually believe it to be true.
The value of knowing exceptions can only come if you know the basic rules, and the exceptions are actually not in conflict with the general rule because they apply to a very small substantive change in the underlying situation that the general rule is being applied to.
For some, perhaps the demonstration of the bino method will solve a misunderstanding by those who can’t picture it. As I understand the method, functionally it is a gap filler and creates a base for the offhand to then adjust elevation with the firm support on top of the top object. The stock may or may not rest on the chosen object.
As far as the bag, I will review my position as an exception: that a rear bag can practically be as fast and effective. First let’s look at Forms justified and evidence based point that he repeatedly he sees shooters who can’t effectively use their bag on his tests, even though they say they can.
Self deception is a universal flaw because humans have a mechanism to lie to themselves. Hence, the value in repetition of “we suck” as a foundational principle from Form. I agree. But, that is not relevant to analysis of the bag/no bag comparison.
I believe that the large numbers of dudes can’t keep track of gear and time out on the test. I also believe that those dudes still suck at the same rate as non bag guys. The bags are irrelevant variable if you suck.
I believe the common denominator for those that suck is the failure to practice appropriate skills in similar conditions to the test.
Failure with a bag and failure without a bag derive from the same error—sucking at the fundamentals of marksmanship. So, in Forms class, merely giving a sucky shooter a bag cannot help him, it can add complexity to a task he already sucks at. I don’t think a bag is necessary to accomplish his goal consistent with the class outcomes and his observations.
Learning that marksmanship is not about the gear is important. It is not the same as gear always detracts from marksmanship.
Practically speaking, I think that training has to start from the fundamentals up. And, the S2H method and class curriculum as I understand it is among the best for training riflemen to kill that I know of for hunters.
And, asking a sucky shooter to include the act of storing a bag and then deploying it might add a complexity that would impede the quick level of improvement in a class focused on fundamentals. So adding a rear bag to the S2H method is unnecessary to its goal, and possibly/likely counter productive because it doesn’t fit with Form’s flow. It certainly might detract from his message that it’s the shooter not the gear…
Here is a though experiment, what happens if another class kept it just as simple, but taught how to store and deploy a bag in an effective manner, and otherwise did as many rounds and reps as the S2H?
Would the addition of a bag make them less lethal, irregardless of a few seconds more?
Would the addition of an easy to deploy bag add any time if it offset the time needed to adjust the harness? Or, find a suitable rock or stick within reach?
Are there brain/physical types that will benefit from a bag derived system more than the Form system?
Would the faster adjustability of the bag for elevation offset any increase in deployment time?
Is a possible increase of lethality with a bag a suitable justification to add say 3-5 more seconds to the time to eliminate timing out? Would the extra three seconds also improve the non bag equally?
In the end, I think the reason I will always use a bag is for benefits that I am willing to gain for mere seconds in penalty. And, I am already carrying it for situations that fall outside the “Form drop and kill drill.”
Another justification is that if it truly comes down to those seconds, I personally don’t know that I would feel comfortable with that shot in a moment where the small time differential is in play. It’s partly a brain focus thing. But, I may change my view and understanding if I practiced it. I just don’t know.
And, make your choice, and remember it’s based on your reasons.
And, yes, today, I probably fail on Forms timed tests, and score low even on the untimed. I know I suck at the standing and kneeling unsupported cause I haven’t practiced it at all.
But, give me a tripod and some bags, and I can kill stuff based on the locations and hunting style I have employed and learned. I don’t need to be fast, but I want to be so I will be practicing.
@Bluumoon can tell you how I sucked at the drills and used the most time on the stages we shot. I hope he also shares who scored the most hits in our fun competition…
Yeah I always have one in my pack as well. It’s a versatile piece of gear and I actually often use it as a front rest as well. Or as a knee pad for kneeling shots as my knees suck from too many years of hockey. It’s not always needed but I still bring it on every trip currently.
Used this LS Wild low fill rear bag as a front bag looped over my barrel and under forend for my 3rd cold bore challenge shot this year.
It’s also great to grab for shooting standing off the hood of a vehicle at coyotes, rabbits, squirrels. etc. I can consistently hit 2 MOA targets out to around 600 yards standing with the rear bag under off hand.
These are ultimately the reason to carry a bag…
I use my bags and have them on my pack to grab all the time for all sorts of reasons. I don’t think I will ever not grab it if I get the rare prone shot.
I have been convinced to use a bag on my pack as a front rest if I do shoot prone.
@hereinaz
First off, I fully blame not eating breakfast and my rifle losing zero for each and everyone of my misses at that event, nothing is lacking w my skill
If I hear you correctly, you are saying we need to run it again.
Kidding aside, I just started carrying and using bags, the S2H front bag last year in particular. In my very limited hunting experience I’ve had one shot/opportunity where I’ve had as much time as I wanted to set up. Everything else has been time limited and is why I run the course the way I do, in fact I think we’ll add more time pressure/cutoffs next time we run the course w a group.
I wounded and didn’t recover my first elk under a situation where I needed to set up and shoot quick from a sitting position at 337 yards. That failure burned into my brain and sent me down a rabbit hole which lead me here via Form’s methods/terminal ballistics (not his glowing personality). That lost opportunity should be a chip shot for me now.
I certainly shoot and practice a certain way, but will steal knowledge and employ it every where I can. One of the reasons I snagged the SSS bag is you showed me a trick I can def employ and the bag is multipurpose. We’ll see if it gets the call after working w it more, initial use is very promising.
There is an interesting trend this week of poo pooing on practice , paying to learn, or shooting a certain way or fighting a certain way of doing things. Everything should be tested, it either stands up or it doesn’t.
I think where you and I differ (maybe) is where we place importance based on the type of hunting scenarios we’ve been a part of or just hunting experience in general. Being proficient riflemen shouldn’t be a debate. I hope those pushing the anti proficiency narrative stick around and see the light , or not whatever.
First off, I fully blame not eating breakfast and my rifle losing zero for each and everyone of my misses at that event, nothing is lacking w my skill
If I hear you correctly, you are saying we need to run it again. Kidding aside, I just started carrying and using bags, the S2H front bag last year in particular. In my very limited hunting experience I’ve had one shot/opportunity where I’ve had as much time as I wanted to set up. Everything else has been time limited and is why I run the course the way I do, in fact I think we’ll add more time pressure/cutoffs next time we run the course w a group.
I wounded and didn’t recover my first elk under a situation where I needed to set up and shoot quick from a sitting position at 337 yards. That failure burned into my brain and sent me down a rabbit hole which lead me here via Form’s methods/terminal ballistics (not his glowing personality). That lost opportunity should be a chip shot for me now.
I certainly shoot and practice a certain way, but will steal knowledge and employ it every where I can. One of the reasons I snagged the SSS bag is you showed me a trick I can def employ and the bag is multipurpose. We’ll see if it gets the call after working w it more, initial use is very promising.
There is an interesting trend this week of poo pooing on practice , paying to learn, or shooting a certain way or fighting a certain way of doing things. Everything should be tested, it either stands up or it doesn’t.
I think where you and I differ (maybe) is where we place importance based on the type of hunting scenarios we’ve been a part of or just hunting experience in general. Being proficient riflemen shouldn’t be a debate. I hope those pushing the anti proficiency narrative stick around and see the light , or not whatever.
I’ve been doing the bino harness rest thing for a while - it works. I used that method to kill three animals with it last fall. I also carry a light fill rear bag. I’m not married to either method and just go with what seems best in the moment.
Marty
WKR
So much orange!
- Joined
- Jan 28, 2023
- Messages
- 399
Man that stock is horrendous. Give it to me
Jason Snyder
WKR
I’m trying to envision my Tundra in that shade of orange.
I’ll reiterate a common refrain. Go shoot. Go hunt. Go get better. Getting chippy about someone using a bio harness as a rear bag seems quite petty.
Marshfly
WKR
That makes sense. Thank you. That’s not what was described earlier as “the harness stays where it is.”Well, crappy photos taken by a 4 year old is the best I can do right now.
To verbally describe it: Lay down, scootch the harness forward off your chest, and voila.
Cryptic messages saying nothing didn’t help either…
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2023
- Messages
- 1,345
In the photos in the post you replied to the demonstration is not correct.
Look at Bluumoon and T_Widdy, they are on it.
Marshfly
WKR
Thanks. My harness is worn too snug/high or is simply not shaped well for that. I just tried to move it into that position when wearing it and it definitely won't just slide up that far.
Q_Sertorius
WKR
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2024
- Messages
- 728
Sounds to me like a man who can improvise, adapt, and overcome!
____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”
All I can hear is "Thumb" ... thinking of you @TimberHunterWell, crappy photos taken by a 4 year old is the best I can do right now.
To verbally describe it: Lay down, scootch the harness forward off your chest, and voila.
doc holiday13
WKR
shooting bags are not something I'd consider a "hunting necessity". If you need something to help steady your stock, you were spot on with using a bino harness, shoe, balled up socks, jacket, etc.
Shooting PRS or NRL... yeah i'll be using a bag
Shooting PRS or NRL... yeah i'll be using a bag
TimberHunter
WKR
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2018
- Messages
- 1,558
All I can hear is "Thumb" ... thinking of you @TimberHunter
Well at least someone will remember THUMB lol
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
TimberHunter
WKR
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2018
- Messages
- 1,558
One thing the course talks about is getting as many contacts points with the ground as possible. If you happen to be in the ridge and spook and animal on a neighboring ridge, prone may be just as fast as any of the other positions but far more contact points. But the time frame to make a shot may still be short due to the animal being on edge
But I understand your point that premeditated prone shots should not have a time constraint
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Montane
FNG
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2017
- Messages
- 27
This part of the class was genuinely revelatory for me. After spending way too much time and money tinkering with different rear bags, it turns out the bino harness I’ve been wearing all along does the job just as well. Watching it demoed was eye-opening but actually shooting 10-round groups using a Sharpie, the brim of my hat, and an ammo box as rear support and seeing no real drop in performance? That sealed it.
It really drove home how powerful it is to actually test something new yourself. Once you see the results firsthand, there’s no going back.
The bino harness is now my go-to. It’s always with me, lightning fast to deploy, and doesn’t require a game of gear tetris.
There were a lot of lightbulb moments in the class. Another big one for me was “grabbing grass.” Seeing it demonstrated—and then all of us getting first-round hits at 300+ yards while shooting seated the very first time we tried it—was seriously impressive.
It really drove home how powerful it is to actually test something new yourself. Once you see the results firsthand, there’s no going back.
The bino harness is now my go-to. It’s always with me, lightning fast to deploy, and doesn’t require a game of gear tetris.
There were a lot of lightbulb moments in the class. Another big one for me was “grabbing grass.” Seeing it demonstrated—and then all of us getting first-round hits at 300+ yards while shooting seated the very first time we tried it—was seriously impressive.
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