Setter owners, some advice

[Dos Perros]

I would stick with field bred setters personally. I'd also stay away from Berg's. I kinda think they are marketers more than they are breeders. @WRO has given good advice, IMO. I've seen some real fire breathing dragon type setters ride shotgun and be great house dogs.

Here's what I look for in a western bird dog:

1) About 45 to 55 pounds
2) Good feet, tight feet, black pads
3) Heat tolerance
4) Parents who compete and do well in wild bird trials
5) Something with pricing in line with the market; IMO the folks that charge double are charlatans

 

[Sierra Hunter]

This is second hand so please take it as such but a friend who guides, breeds, and trains
Bird dogs chooses not to own setters for a few reasons. One is the long hair in the southwest for heat and flora issues. The other is he says they’re less “plug and play” as the GSPs and Pointers. They’re sensitive and benefit from an experienced hand in training , ie they don’t give as much grace to mistakes and are prone to shutting down with too heavy a hand. Again just hearsay,I’m sure others can weigh in with firsthand experience.

 

[WRO]

This is second hand so please take it as such but a friend who guides, breeds, and trains
Bird dogs chooses not to own setters for a few reasons. One is the long hair in the southwest for heat and flora issues. The other is he says they’re less “plug and play” as the GSPs and Pointers. They’re sensitive and benefit from an experienced hand in training , ie they don’t give as much grace to mistakes and are prone to shutting down with too heavy a hand. Again just hearsay,I’m sure others can weigh in with firsthand experience.

Each dog is wired differently, my male will eat stim, my females are a little softer. Pointers are definitely easier, gsps are a shit show because of the housewives and back yard breeding, I wouldn’t buy one with out researching the breeder.

To clarify that, if you buy a pointer, I would be shocked if it didn’t hunt because they are typically still only bred for true working lines. Setters, Britt’s, GSP’s and most other breeds require research.


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[JGood]

@WRO and i have been on the same side of this discussion like 3 times in the last year. Everything he has said i would echo. The information below is largely to clear up much of the discussion and provide information. Im not suggesting the OP purchase an All-Age dog.

Some important things to note.

-GSP's as a whole are no more or less high strung than setters. If your GSPs were wild, chances are high it's the training/trainer not the dog.

-Unfortunately there are not a lot of S-tier setters out there anymore. What i mean by this is that there are not a lot of successful setters competing and winning at the All-Age Field Trial Circut. This is the breeding stock that all real english setter breeders pull from. Fortunately there seem to be a lot of dogs competing in Shooting Dog stakes. The "best-dogs" are competing in the All-Age, the second best are in Shooting Dog, then Amatures, then on down the line to walking trials etc. This is not to say you want or need an All-Age dog. Its just to say those dogs are competing at the highest level.
Those dogs are as follows. Woodville's Yukon Cornelius, Snyder's Fireside Ed, Erin's Wild Atlantic Way, Valor's Lace And Grace, Woodville's Long Hard Ride, Battle Born Bette.

-As you stray away from actively field trialing dog breeders, the risks you get of having a dog that is less than steller go exponentially up.

-Currently, the best breeding stock for hunting of ALL Setters is amongst those breeding and trialling English Setters. Everything else is a vain side show. Thats totally ok by the way. Every breeder is entitled to breed dogs however they want. I throw no shade at them. The fact is, no Ryman, Gordon, Llewellin is going to be competetive at the 2026 Grand National Grouse and Woodcock Invitational, Mortlach, Quail Invitational or any other competitive American Field trial. Vanity is fine. I love pretty Gordons as much as the next guy and love the storied history of Llewellins, but theyre not the end all be all of hunting xyz species in xyz type of cover.

-All of that being said, here is the catch. If you can find a breeder who lives really close by and trains/breeds his dogs to do exactly what you want to do, that can be a really great option. The best dogs in the world are very adaptable. its what makes them competitive on a national scale. If you dont need adaptability, the guy down the street breeding Gordons/Rymans/etc to hunt california quail in his back yard is probably a really great deal. Plus you can get a nice little training/hunting combo with them

NONE of this is to say you cant find INCREDIBLE setters for your needs. Its just to say the breeding stock is not what it should be. We're in a bit of slow decade of English Setters compared to years past. Id still point you towards a setter and any of the breeders mentioned are worth a look.

If you decide to get a dog not from breeders mentioned above, the biggest negative things to look out for are the buzz words:
-Close working
-Well mannered
-Gentlemens hunting dog
-traditional horzontal tail
-grouse dog
-off switch

Look for words like CH, RU CH, 2x Ntl CH, HOF CH.....they will be found in the Pedegree

 

[WRO]

@JGood I’m surprised there’s no west coast dogs on your list. Alex Mauck has had a dog make Ames the last 2 years. I do believe circle b’s wanted Ryder will qualify in the next couple of years.

Shadow oak Bo, grouse ridge Cody, and Tekoa Mountain sunrise need to be on the list.

I agree on the llwyns and Gordons not making the cut for AA, but there are lots of them that are very good hunting dogs as long as they’re from the right stock.

 

[JGood]

@JGood I’m surprised there’s no west coast dogs on your list. Alex Mauck has had a dog make Ames the last 2 years. I do believe circle b’s wanted Ryder will qualify in the next couple of years.

Shadow oak Bo, grouse ridge Cody, and Tekoa Mountain sunrise need to be on the list.

I agree on the llwyns and Gordons not making the cut for AA, but there are lots of them that are very good hunting dogs as long as they’re from the right stock.

@WRO great point. I just pulled the current High Point ES dogs. Obviously getting a dog out of any one of those dogs you mentioned is great too. (to be fair my 2x ntl ch reference was to the one and only though we have yet to see a real national caliber dog out of Bo)

To your hunting dog point, I have handled/guided over plenty of great dogs that were LS. Theyre just exceedingly hard to come by and even the ones coming out of the top NSTRA stock are like 50/50 in the field. To be fair, my sample size is only 15-20 new dogs a year so i typlically only get to play with 1-2 new LS a year. Ive heard Gordons are making a great comeback but have yet to see it in our Region. HOWEVER, lets be clear, there are NO LS, GS or RS qualifying to be even Amature Shooting Dog Champs there is ONE Irish Setter....

 

[WRO]

@WRO great point. I just pulled the current High Point ES dogs. Obviously getting a dog out of any one of those dogs you mentioned is great too. (to be fair my 2x ntl ch reference was to the one and only though we have yet to see a real national caliber dog out of Bo)

To your hunting dog point, I have handled/guided over plenty of great dogs that were LS. Theyre just exceedingly hard to come by and even the ones coming out of the top NSTRA stock are like 50/50 in the field. To be fair, my sample size is only 15-20 new dogs a year so i typlically only get to play with 1-2 new LS a year. Ive heard Gordons are making a great comeback but have yet to see it in our Region. HOWEVER, let’s be clear, there are NO LS, GS or RS qualifying to be even Amature Shooting Dog Champs there is ONE Irish Setter....

Tall Grass Gordon setters is putting out some great dogs, there are a couple of red (not Irish) setters over here doing well in Nastra. Tom and I have been considering sending a pup to Sergio to campaign one of these years, not cheap but he’s got some great lines.

My tall grass Dog runs about as big as I want in a foot dog, she’ll regularly get out past 600 and hunts 2-5, my LL is lucky to push past 250. My accident pup is my favorite, she’s half Gordon, half English and I killed on a 768 yard mark last year foot hunting, but she’s usually a 150-300 yard dog when were on birds, if the numbers are thin they’ll both get pretty rangy, being mostly chukar dogs almost always up hill..

Picture is tall grass Zoli, that dog has wheels.

 

[JGood]

I was unaware Sergio was taking in non-pointers. Thats very interesting and your right, a very expensive endevor. unfortunately Kamloops is very difficult to get to from where I live. Ive really liked what hes been able to do. Some of the best looking pointers ive ever seen.

 

[WRO]

I was unaware Sergio was taking in non-pointers. Thats very interesting and your right, a very expensive endevor. unfortunately Kamloops is very difficult to get to from where I live. Ive really liked what hes been able to do. Some of the best looking pointers ive ever seen.

He’s campaigning Circle B Ryder and has a Setter pup in derby from the same lines. His pointers are pretty amazing dogs..

 

[Coach529]

Tall Grass Gordon setters is putting out some great dogs, there are a couple of red (not Irish) setters over here doing well in Nastra. Tom and I have been considering sending a pup to Sergio to campaign one of these years, not cheap but he’s got some great lines.

My tall grass Dog runs about as big as I want in a foot dog, she’ll regularly get out past 600 and hunts 2-5, my LL is lucky to push past 250. My accident pup is my favorite, she’s half Gordon, half English and I killed on a 768 yard mark last year foot hunting, but she’s usually a 150-300 yard dog when were on birds, if the numbers are thin they’ll both get pretty rangy, being mostly chukar dogs almost always up hill..

Picture is tall grass Zoli, that dog has wheels.

Tom puts out great dogs. I bought my very first Gordon from him when he was in North Dakota.