Semi vs Bolt Gun for Bear Country

[grahambiel]

I’m planning on doing some more hunting in grizz country in the coming years with a November kodiak blacktail hunt in the near future. I typically carry a glock 10mm when I’m hunting even just in black bear country but in reality, a rifle is just going to have more oomph than a handgun in most cases. I know a handgun can stop a bear and there are plenty of cases, but in my personal opinion when the big bears are a real possibility, I’d prefer a rifle as my first line of defense

So I’m looking at options for a “do all” rifle that I can use to hunt deer and elk but is nimble in close quarters if we ever have a run in with a brown bear. While a 45-70 lever would clearly be a great option for bear defense, it’s usefulness for hunting really starts to drop off after 200 yards so I’ve pretty much ruled that out.

Right now I’ve narrowed my options down to two schools of thought: either 308 AR or a short action short barreled (18ish) bolt gun chambered in either .308 or potentially even a short mag (though you lose a lot of advantage of the magnum in a short barrel).

Either one will wear a 1-4 or 1-6 scope so this isn’t meant to be an ultra long range hunting rifle but I’d like to be able to shoot deer out to 400 or so which I think either is capable of. Some of the pros/cons in my mind are:

Follow up shots - advantage clearly goes to the semi AR but I’ve seen guys with scout rifles that can sling some lead pretty quick with a bolt gun, so I know it can be done with practice

Weight - clear advantage to the bolt gun. I can build a 308 AR to land around 8.5 lbs but a short barreled short action bolt gun will be closer to the 6lb range

Reliability- probably pretty close though the bolt gun has fewer moving parts which is generally a pro in my book

Caliber choices - clear advantage to bolt gun though I’m planning on sticking to a short action so really I’m looking at either a .308 or 300wsm

Price - advantage to the bolt gun. To build a 308 AR light enough to carry, I’ll probably be in it $1500-1800 whereas I could get a short action tikka or ruger american, cut the barrel down, have it threaded and still be in it under a grand

Accuracy - advantage bolt gun though a 308 AR can certainly get 1moa accuracy with the right parts

Would love to get opinions on which direction you’d go from guys who have done a lot of hunting in bear country. I don’t intend for this to turn into a “which caliber is best” or “handgun vs rifle” debate for bear defense. My personal opinion is I’d rather have a rifle in my hands than a handgun - I know none of the above are the ideal caliber for pure bear defense but I’m trying to find the right balance of utility for hunting with capabilities as a defense weapon should the need arise.

 

[Marbles]

I would take a bolt action. As you lighten an AR-10 you have to make compromises on reliability. My 20 inch barreled 30-06 feels more maneuverable to me in brush than my 14.5 inch (16 inch with flash hider) AR-15. This is primarily because the bolt action has less to snag on things and is lighter. The bolt action is also more comfortable to carry in my hands.

Make the first shot count, because if you don't have control of the first round it is unlikely you are going to get control on the follow up shots. More for psychological reasons than technical.

I believe Tikkas are all long action, regardless of caliber. So, if getting a Tikka no need to limit yourself to short action rounds.

Both can work for what you want.

 

[rayporter]

if i packed a semi it would be a BAR. in your case i would choose a bolt gun,
my 450BM does not see use deer hunting.
a BLR in 308 would be better than an AR for me.

 

[Tahoe1305]

For the prices you are talking on an AR10, it’s not difficult to be sub 6lbs (un scoped). Agree it comes with risk on reliability. You could solve those issues at the range and once you get your gas/buffer squared away and a few hundred rounds you’d likely feel fairly confident with it. Not sure it would sway me away from a bolt gun though, just for something with more power.

 

[Holmes]

1) imho. worrying much about bears is a red herring.
If bear encounters were 1/1000th as serious as we all worry about on the internet, hundreds of people would be mauled every year. Most bear encounters happen on internet forums

2) again, just my opinion, but I *really* don't want to shoot a bear if I'm not hunting one. 1 of 2 things are going to happen: you'll wound the bear and then you have a pissed off desperate killing machine in your vicinity. Or, you'll kill the bear and then your blacktail hunt is over, because you have to butcher up this bear, haul it all out, and go report it to ADF&G. You have to do all the work, but get to keep nothing from the bear. It sucks.
Many thousands of hunters are successful in AK every year without having to shoot a bear in defense, even though many of them encounter bears! Almost all bears can be successfully convinced to go away without shooting them, and that is so preferable to dealing with a dead bear you don't want and having to justify it to ADF&G. On a moose hunt 3 years ago I saw at 9 different brown bears over 4 days, all with 600 yards of me, some within 100 yards of camp while we were eating dinner, every one of them sprinted away at the sound of a clap. I was successful on a moose hunt in the same area this year, earlier in the season when the grass was still high. I know there were brown bears there, looking for my gut pile, even though I couldn't see through the grass. I never once worried that I was in danger that couldn't manage with good situational awareness, noise, and camp hygiene. (maybe I'm an idiot and should have been more scared?)

3) bear spray works great, just saying. but that's my personal choice....probably because I can't hit a barn with a large caliber handgun and I'm not willing to take the time to learn, because bear spray works, really well, based upon experience of close friends. cheaper than buying a new gun.

4) bolt guns are used to hunt bears....should get the job done should it come to that. Don't compromise on Job #1 for the extremely miniscule chance of Job #2.

 

[hodgeman]

You're thinking too hard about this.

There's a serious difference between "stopping" a bear and hunting a bear. A lot of folks use a 300 for everything up here and 338s are pretty common. For stopping a brown bear, a .375 is where that starts and bigger isn't unusual. And even that feels small. If you're hunting deer, a 308 is fine.

The best way to stay out of bear trouble is using your head.

 

[deadwolf]

1) imho. worrying much about bears is a red herring.
If bear encounters were 1/1000th as serious as we all worry about on the internet, hundreds of people would be mauled every year. Most bear encounters happen on internet forums

2) again, just my opinion, but I *really* don't want to shoot a bear if I'm not hunting one. 1 of 2 things are going to happen: you'll wound the bear and then you have a pissed off desperate killing machine in your vicinity. Or, you'll kill the bear and then your blacktail hunt is over, because you have to butcher up this bear, haul it all out, and go report it to ADF&G. You have to do all the work, but get to keep nothing from the bear. It sucks.
Many thousands of hunters are successful in AK every year without having to shoot a bear in defense, even though many of them encounter bears! Almost all bears can be successfully convinced to go away without shooting them, and that is so preferable to dealing with a dead bear you don't want and having to justify it to ADF&G. On a moose hunt 3 years ago I saw at 9 different brown bears over 4 days, all with 600 yards of me, some within 100 yards of camp while we were eating dinner, every one of them sprinted away at the sound of a clap. I was successful on a moose hunt in the same area this year, earlier in the season when the grass was still high. I know there were brown bears there, looking for my gut pile, even though I couldn't see through the grass. I never once worried that I was in danger that couldn't manage with good situational awareness, noise, and camp hygiene. (maybe I'm an idiot and should have been more scared?)

3) bear spray works great, just saying. but that's my personal choice....probably because I can't hit a barn with a large caliber handgun and I'm not willing to take the time to learn, because bear spray works, really well, based upon experience of close friends. cheaper than buying a new gun.

4) bolt guns are used to hunt bears....should get the job done should it come to that. Don't compromise on Job #1 for the extremely miniscule chance of Job #2.

Heed this post, same advice I would pass along. There are times I carry my 10mm, but more and more I’m carrying bear spray in addition to my hunting rifle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

The threat of bears is WAAAY overblown. Carry what you would normally carry.

 

[gbflyer]

Kodiak isn’t “griz country”. It’s brown bear country. They are primarily well fed due to the coastal conditions of being near salmon rivers and the beach. They do not normally hunt you for food like sometimes happens in the Interior by the smaller grizzly.

I wouldn’t pack an AR10 on a Kodiak deer hunt. Too snaggy and too heavy. Plain old bolt gun in ‘06 or the like would be preferred.

 

[kevin11mee]

I'd go with a bolt-action rifle. Any semi-auto can freeze up and lose some functioning.

 

[EastHumboldt]

Field and stream did a case study of all known bear attacks in the last 40-50 years and the science was this. attacks where bear spray was used had lower incidence of injury to the user. The reasons were: 1) you can’t see what you’re hitting with a gun but you can with spray And aiming a firearm properly under that much pressure is a rare skill. 2) You can fatally wound a bear and he’ll still have enough gas left to rip your head off and stuff it up your butt before he dies. The spray immediately wrecks their “sight picture” and they can’t smell you all of a sudden while their eyes and nose are full of stinging bees.

this is just what I read. All my experience has been Black bears in the Sierra. maybe 15-20 encounters. They all ran away with almost no persuasion. Never had one in camp. Never messed with Griz or kodiaks .

Ruger Scout comes in quite a variety of calibers and is a very effective handy bolt gun with an available 10 round magazine in 308. My son uses his for muley hunting in wide open NV mountain country.

 

[grahambiel]

Thanks for the responses guys. Probably should have known better since this topic always gets so divisive but I really didn’t intend this to turn into a bear spray vs gun argument (there are enough of those online). I’ve read them, I get the pros and cons but gun is my personal choice for a number of reasons.

Ive talked to enough guys with first hand brown bear encounters on Kodiak/afognak where I know it’s a possibility and while I also know the chances of actually being attacked are fairly slim, I believe in being prepared - and who doesn’t look for an excuse to buy a new gun

 

[madcalfe]

I do fly in back pack sheep hunts every year (live in northern BC) and see grizzly's every year. your way over thinking the whole i need a big gun in the woods thing. just use common sense and have a firearm your confident with while hunting and you'll be fine. I use a .300wsm but wouldn't think twice about going even smaller to a 7saum while backpacking.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Thanks for the responses guys. Probably should have known better since this topic always gets so divisive but I really didn’t intend this to turn into a bear spray vs gun argument (there are enough of those online). I’ve read them, I get the pros and cons but gun is my personal choice for a number of reasons.

Ive talked to enough guys with first hand brown bear encounters on Kodiak/afognak where I know it’s a possibility and while I also know the chances of actually being attacked are fairly slim, I believe in being prepared - and who doesn’t look for an excuse to buy a new gun

Do bear spray and have it in an extremely accessible place.

Here's a fun little test. Take a friend to a safe place where you can setup some targets. Bring your full hunting setup (at least what will be on your pack and what you'll be carrying including your rifle). Also include a handgun and associated holster. Without looking, have your friend setup up targets of different sizes at various distances out to 50 yards. On the count of three: Turn around, have your friend yell where the target is (AKA the charging bear) , draw your handgun, and get a shot off. Your target time is less than 1 second for any "bear" within 13 yards, 2 seconds for 26 yards and none for beyond that as that'd be a hard sell for "self defense". Have your friend throw in some "cub" targets to mimic a sow and cubs. If you can get a CNS hit within that required time frame then consider bringing a handgun.

If it makes you feel better, have a magazine loaded with monos while you are moving. Can swap easily enough come time to hunt or shoot them if a deer pops up unexpectedly close.

Just have realistic expectations on what you can do and be "bear aware".

 

[Wapiti1]

I do know a couple of folks that hunt Kodiak with a DPMS pattern .308. It works well. Just like any other .308 would. My friends wife was military and it is the platform she is used to so it works for her. She's newer to hunting, so it was a good entry using a rifle that she was already comfortable shooting.

If it were me, I'd take a bolt gun and a backup handgun for packing meat.

The reliability tradeoffs are too great when you are in the middle of nowhere with limited tools. And it has already malfunctioned when you need those tools. Bolt rifles will malfunction as well, but a little prep and the chances are less than tiny.

If you are really worried, buy a Remington 7600 pump in .35 Whelen. Fast, reliable, and a thumper.

Jeremy

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Ive talked to enough guys with first hand brown bear encounters on Kodiak/afognak where I know it’s a possibility and while I also know the chances of actually being attacked are fairly slim, I believe in being prepared - and who doesn’t look for an excuse to buy a new gun

I used it as an excuse to buy new guns when I moved there, so you have my full support on that front. The reality is that you'll be fine with what you have. You'll enjoy the experience.

 

[ExpectNoMercy]

300 win mag hells canyon with a 1.5-5 vx3 for brown bear hunts.

 

[Desk Jockey]

Noting you are from North Carolina, make sure you know How your AR runs in the cold weather. There are some tweaks you’LL want to make in case you are their during freezing temps. at bit of google will turn up some good resources. Among other things, Some popular AR lubes dont do well in cold temps.

ARctic Proof: Optimizing Your AR for Sub-Zero Temps

Always controversial, in recent years we’ve seen more than a few references to the M16’s ability to handle hot climates

www.tactical-life.com

 

[grahambiel]

Noting you are from North Carolina, make sure you know How your AR runs in the cold weather. There are some tweaks you’LL want to make in case you are their during freezing temps. at bit of google will turn up some good resources. Among other things, Some popular AR lubes dont do well in cold temps.

ARctic Proof: Optimizing Your AR for Sub-Zero Temps

Always controversial, in recent years we’ve seen more than a few references to the M16’s ability to handle hot climates

www.tactical-life.com

Yeah man that’s a good point and maybe one of the reasons you don’t see a lot of guys running them on hunts. I’ve considered doing the build for a while to have a brush gun for pigs, etc. but the more I think about it the more I lean towards just getting another bolt gun and a lever action and calling it a day rather than trying to fit an AR into the specs I want

 

[FLAK]

.375 Ruger Alaskan.