Scope mounting to maintain zero

[ResearchinStuff]

The dinky screws are absolutely part of the problem. Base screws tend to be the smallest, that's why it's best to use an integral rail if available. Next best is a bonded rail.

 

[Choupique]

would be significant advantages to using larger diameter screws

Probably, but they may not be significant. Theres too many variables. Something that has to be dealt with is the universal nature of the parts involved. The rifle is made for everyone's mounts, the mounts made for every rifle, the torque values based on the tapped hole being steel or titanium or stainless etc. They're as universal as possible for economy of scale which makes good joint design impossible. You might only accomplish distorting the mount or the reciever more by using bigger/stronger fasteners. I don't think it's really worth modifying stuff and then marrying yourself to custom bases from that point forward. Just "glue" it all together.

If the failure mode is slipping, dowel pins would be "better" without having to tackle the fastener problems. Thats how you handle it with machinery when you either can't or don't feel you need to get adequate clamp load from foundation bolts. Thats basically what a pic rail and cross bolt rings gets you, assuming they fit very tight and are installed properly. The factory supplied tikka rings do this with a pin, nightforce rails with a lug that indexes against the receiver bridge. Those kind of features can make a big difference here, since we have such light clamp loads.

 

[Clark33]

Reviving this after watching this video today, I'm not for or against this, found it interesting though. He's mainly talking about reducing the friction between the rings and rail.

 

[passinggas33]

Very basic question that we debated and need some insight…

When you mount a scope, do you ensure that the gun is level front to back before mounting the scope? Does not having it level front to back introduce a “third axis” into the leveling concept? Or is in so insignificant that it doesn’t matter?

I personally just through it on a vise, and level it side to side. But curious if I have been adding in an avoidable error for increased precision. Thanks for sharing knowledge!

 

[Castle Rock]

No

 

[Short Track]

Anyone ever read the DNZ Game Reaper mounting instructions? Very interesting.. no locite ever.

also, anyone ever take apart rings and bases with loctite? I can't imagine the screws coming out ever.
To date, I have had 2 rifles drilled out that were assembled dry, or with oil. Not even loctite. The little cheap screws just strip. Recently, I have had ring screws bind so bad, had to be drilled.

 

[dieselchessy]

Ive assembled all the ones I’ve done in the last 20 years with blue locktite. Maybe had a screw or two get mangled on the way out, but have never needed to drill anything out. Just replace a screw or two here or there.
It does take a little extra clean up after removal to be ready to go back together.
I gone through a handful of these tubes over the years.

 

[Castle Rock]

Anyone ever read the DNZ Game Reaper mounting instructions? Very interesting.. no locite ever.

also, anyone ever take apart rings and bases with loctite? I can't imagine the screws coming out ever.
To date, I have had 2 rifles drilled out that were assembled dry, or with oil. Not even loctite. The little cheap screws just strip. Recently, I have had ring screws bind so bad, had to be drilled.

Some people could wreck an anvil
I epoxy or loctite everything and never have had a disaster

 

[Macintosh]

Very basic question that we debated and need some insight…

When you mount a scope, do you ensure that the gun is level front to back before mounting the scope? Does not having it level front to back introduce a “third axis” into the leveling concept? Or is in so insignificant that it doesn’t matter?

I personally just through it on a vise, and level it side to side. But curious if I have been adding in an avoidable error for increased precision. Thanks for sharing knowledge!

It makes no sense to level the gun front to back, 100% of the time an angle between the bore and scope is a REQUIREMENT, as opposed to an option or something to avoid.

@Short Track Ive used loctite 242 on every scope Ive mounted for the past 9 years or so, so at least several dozen mounts between new scopes and switching them around. Never had a screw strip or break on any half-way decent mounts, never had to go thru any shenanigans to unscrew them. Always a fairly involved cleanup, but not to the point of being problematic. If I did more I might get myself a supply of ring cap screws for the mounts I use, but so far that would have been a convenience more than a legit problem. I dont bathe screws in loctite the way some folks seem to describe, I’ll apply a thin strip along the length of the screw (so probably no more than a single very small drop on a ring cap screw) and it wicks around the threads, in addition to being spread around as it’s screwed-in.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

i have had fewer issues removing loctited screws ring cap screws than I have had removing rusted in ring cap screws. if they rust inside it takes at least an easy out, if not a dremel tool to extract the scope from the rings.

 

[Veloci_Wrench]

Anyone ever read the DNZ Game Reaper mounting instructions? Very interesting.. no locite ever.

also, anyone ever take apart rings and bases with loctite? I can't imagine the screws coming out ever.
To date, I have had 2 rifles drilled out that were assembled dry, or with oil. Not even loctite. The little cheap screws just strip. Recently, I have had ring screws bind so bad, had to be drilled.

Loctite 242 (& oil resistant version 243) is actually marketed to prevent corrosion where applied. So, as long as your hardware is not undersized, you should have no problem removing blue loctited assemblies.

FWIW: On small torx screws (t10), I have actually twisted the torx tool bit before doing any damage to the screw itself. I think Seekins et. al. are better style rings given their larger hardware that utilizes T25 torx wrench, etc.

 

[Short Track]

From the DNZ webpage:
Thread Locker is not needed with our mounts if it is installed correctly. DO NOT use any type of thread locker on our long ring screws. The screws we use are longer than other companies screws. We have about 20 threads holding your scope in place on each screw. If you do use thread locker, most of the time you will have to saw or break screws to get your scope out of mount. Do not send any mount back to us for exchange or refund if it has thread locker anywhere on the mount.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Loctite 242 (& oil resistant version 243) is actually marketed to prevent corrosion where applied. So, as long as your hardware is not undersized, you should have no problem removing blue loctited assemblies.

FWIW: On small torx screws (t10), I have actually twisted the torx tool bit before doing any damage to the screw itself. I think Seekins et. al. are better style rings given their larger hardware that utilizes T25 torx wrench, etc.

i think the small torx bits failing before the screw head strips out is a positive feature.

 

[ETtikka]

From the DNZ webpage:
Thread Locker is not needed with our mounts if it is installed correctly. DO NOT use any type of thread locker on our long ring screws. The screws we use are longer than other companies screws. We have about 20 threads holding your scope in place on each screw. If you do use thread locker, most of the time you will have to saw or break screws to get your scope out of mount. Do not send any mount back to us for exchange or refund if it has thread locker anywhere on the mount.

The DNZ ring screws are extremely long for sure and their logic makes sense

their base screws are tiny and if you call em they will gladly send you more if needed , the base screws are by far their “weak link”, worst part is it is hard to do a visual check on the base screws for some , even if you paint an index mark

 

[TaperPin]

Reviving this after watching this video today, I'm not for or against this, found it interesting though. He's mainly talking about reducing the friction between the rings and rail.

I was also surprised by the video. If they hadn’t measured it the idea seems odd, but it seems to make sense that an angled surface mates better with a little lube that lets them snug up tighter.

 

[Veloci_Wrench]

i think the small torx bits failing before the screw head strips out is a positive feature.

I don't disagree. It's certainly preferable to the alternative.

 

[Choupique]

adding in an avoidable error for increased precision

It only matters to the degree it affects your ability to read the gizmos you are using. Crosshair perpendicular to bore is the only thing that really matters in terms of leveling.

Tubes and rings with indexing functions would totally eliminate this and it drives me insane that it doesn't exist. Any scope manufacturer, please read this and implement it. Its absolutely maddening to need to even think about this.

DNZ ring screws are extremely long for sure and their logic makes sense

Nah, I don't like it. Again, it goes back to the "universal" nature of stuff marketed to people who are not likely very smart about fasteners and related stuffs. "Threadlocker" could mean everything from nail polish to fitting compound to tie wire and everything in between. Loctite 242 will not cause any issues with disassembly regardless of how long the thread engagement is. In the absolute most horrible of cases, a hair drier is enough heat to almost totally release it.

 

[SNelson]

“Tubes and rings with indexing functions would totally eliminate this and it drives me insane that it doesn't exist”

Gunwerks Revic has index marks in the tube, forward of the turret.