Scope mounting loctite or not?

[realunlucky]

These arguments are so tiresome.



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[CampSmith]

These arguments are so tiresome.



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Not arguing just try to point out that there are different ways to accomplish the same goal. In the end if it works for you have at it. It's all good. This is a great forum.

 

[Sandstrom]

Comparing a manufacturer recommendation to blindly following authority is silly. Next time just put diesel in your gas car and connect your microwave to a 220 when the instructions say a 110.

Clearly you missed the part where said “the lack of ability to use critical thinking skills”

 

[Macintosh]

Below exchange with Seekins Precision just moments ago--their response is verbatim. Dude was honest with me and quick to reply and gave me permission to quote him here (I asked after the exchange). I have several sets of their rings, which I have had nothing but good luck with.

Me: is there a legit problem with using loctite 242 or 222 on ring cap screws? I know most manufacturers recommend against it, citing wet torque clamping being potentially too high, I'm wondering if there is a legit problem with it compared to the also-wet lightly-oiled screws as they come in the package, which I believe also result in a similar wet torque. If that's true it seems contradictory, so I'm wondering what the real story is.

Seekins: It is totally fine to use a SMALL dab of blue loctite on your ring screws. We generally advise agsint it b/c of the implications that a thread lock inherently has. Additionally, customers will complain about how the threads feel after disassembling loctited screws...of course they'll feel nasty, they'll be covered in threadlocker!

Me: Thanks! Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "the implications that a thread lock inherently has"? Is that the increase in clamping force because it's wet? If so, isnt the lightly-oiled screw right out of the box similarly lubricated already? Or is this why you say a SMALL amount, because more lubricant will further increase clamping above what a small amount will do?

Seekins: Yes, that was my bad, thread locker does just that, locks things into place. You would be amazed at the number of customers that call or email that are upset that they can't get the screws loose out of their rings...that's what I was referring to. Honestly, we really try not to overcomplicate things. If you want to use loctite, you can. If not, you dont have to, you're just going to want to check the torque of those screws periodically.

From the response, it seems to me they are more worried about customers complaining about gummed-up screws and threadlocker doing it's job to lock things in place, than they are with threadlocker causing any difference in clamping force.

 

[omicron1792]

Clearly you missed the part where said “the lack of ability to use critical thinking skills”

Yeah. Maybe if he had just said that and not the other 237 words I wouldn’t have missed it

 

[omicron1792]

Below exchange with Seekins Precision just moments ago--their response is verbatim. Dude was honest with me and quick to reply and gave me permission to quote him here (I asked after the exchange). I have several sets of their rings, which I have had nothing but good luck with.

Me: is there a legit problem with using loctite 242 or 222 on ring cap screws? I know most manufacturers recommend against it, citing wet torque clamping being potentially too high, I'm wondering if there is a legit problem with it compared to the also-wet lightly-oiled screws as they come in the package, which I believe also result in a similar wet torque. If that's true it seems contradictory, so I'm wondering what the real story is.

Seekins: It is totally fine to use a SMALL dab of blue loctite on your ring screws. We generally advise agsint it b/c of the implications that a thread lock inherently has. Additionally, customers will complain about how the threads feel after disassembling loctited screws...of course they'll feel nasty, they'll be covered in threadlocker!

Me: Thanks! Could you elaborate a little on what you mean by "the implications that a thread lock inherently has"? Is that the increase in clamping force because it's wet? If so, isnt the lightly-oiled screw right out of the box similarly lubricated already? Or is this why you say a SMALL amount, because more lubricant will further increase clamping above what a small amount will do?

Seekins: Yes, that was my bad, thread locker does just that, locks things into place. You would be amazed at the number of customers that call or email that are upset that they can't get the screws loose out of their rings...that's what I was referring to. Honestly, we really try not to overcomplicate things. If you want to use loctite, you can. If not, you dont have to, you're just going to want to check the torque of those screws periodically.

From the response, it seems to me they are more worried about customers complaining about gummed-up screws and threadlocker doing it's job to lock things in place, than they are with threadlocker causing any difference in clamping force.

I was told that’s a tech talking not an engineer so what he says has no merit.

 

[UpNorth89]

I was told that’s a tech talking not an engineer so what he says has no merit.

On many occasions I've seen where a tech has to fix the mistakes of an engineer. The problem with many engineers is that they have no field experience to see how things actually work. Their calculations can only take things so far.

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[mxgsfmdpx]

Whether you “baby” your rifle, throw it on the ground on purpose, or somewhere in between, I’ve found that blue loctite on all screws in the rifles and scopes has helped me personally.

I’m more of a “baby” kind of guy. I regularly wipe them down, use sharpies and paints to fix chips, etc. try to keep them as nice as possible. I also tend to let them ride with the best chance of maintaining zero whether in a vehicle or in pack/carrying etc. That doesn’t mean my gear isn’t “used” it’s just a different strategy than some.

My rifles see more vehicle ride time and field use/actual shots than most. Lots of people I know claim this as well but it’s almost never true. When they are invited to shoot multiple times a week and always have an excuse to not come, you learn what people’s real habits are with firearms. They go in a safe and come out a couple times a year. Which is fine, but don’t claim hard use please. Riding on a quad a couple times a year for whitetail season isn’t hard use.

Taking advice from folks here, as well as doing my own testing on rifles that are used multiple times every week, I can confidently say that blue loctite and torque values on the following screws is a recipe for maintaining zero…

Action to stock (Tikka and Sako with metal components) 60-65 inch lbs. Liberal blue loctite.

Ring bases to action (Tikka UM rings) 55-60 inch lbs. Liberal blue loctite.

Scope ring caps to scope ring bases (Tikka UM rings) 30-35 inch lbs. Liberal blue loctite.

Tikka recoil lug. Blue loctite applied to bottom side and tapped in with a hammer.

Once I applied these principles to 6 rifles now (four Tikka and two Sako) it’s like some kind of magic. Things that used to make me “re-zero” or wonder why I missed shots only to find out the rifle and scope were “off” have disappeared so far. Pretty neat.

I’m heading out tomorrow morning to go shoot two rifles that are setup this way. Some 20 round group verification shots are happening before a trip to Northern California for predator hunting and long range shooting in high wind practice. I’ll be sure to let you all know here if the loctite “wet torque” has caused any issues.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Not arguing just try to point out that there are different ways to accomplish the same goal. In the end if it works for you have at it. It's all good. This is a great forum.

You just argued about arguing.

This topic has been discussed on this forum in probably 50 threads or more which is why Unlucky posted what he did.

You came in claiming things as facts because “you’ve been around the block”. In my experience, just about everything you’ve posted in this thread is the opposite of what maintains success in the field on this particular topic.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I put red on everything.

Those screws never shoot tight. They only shoot loose... Blue, at a minimum if you are scared

 

[Macintosh]

I was told that’s a tech talking not an engineer so what he says has no merit.

Fair point, since I made it. To be entirely fair though, the quote I was referring to didnt contain the original question or any detail beyond the short soundbite, which leaves the contradiction of factory-issued oiled screws entirely unaddressed. If it had been followed up by a pointed question asking about whether that was true relative to an already-oiled screw, with a correspondingly detailed answer, I would not have made that comment—you dont need to be an engineer to provide a thorough, fact-based answer. The reason I posted the above exchange is specifically because that was a pointed question, followed up by clarification. I am betting we can agree that its pretty normal to get a different answer depending on how you ask the question.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Rokslide green loctite (between red and blue) or nothing.

 

[ckleeves]

I put cod liver oil on every screw on my rifles and scopes so when the deers smell it they won’t go runnin.

 

[CampSmith]

You just argued about arguing.

This topic has been discussed on this forum in probably 50 threads or more which is why Unlucky posted what he did.

You came in claiming things as facts because “you’ve been around the block”. In my experience, just about everything you’ve posted in this thread is the opposite of what maintains success in the field on this particular topic.

No just saying what works for me in my experience. When someone said they use loctite on everything I never went back at them with sarcasm or was condescending like i was the foremost expert in the field. That if you did it any other way you were percent wrong because I said so. Again do it the way that makes you happy. I'll stick with if it ain't broke don't fix it. I personally feel there's no need because it's been working for me for many years on multiple guns. Not just my own but many that I set up for friends and customers over the years. This is my opinion that's based on my experience of working on guns over the years and learning what works and what doesn't. Everyone is entitled to their own just don't try to downplay someone else's experience or opinion because it doesn't align with yours.

 

[CampSmith]

You guys should try squinting some loctite on the balloonknot. They really love that.

 

[TaperPin]

There are a few hard ways to go through life and one of them is as an experiential learner that discounts the knowledge and experience of others that came before, and you have to reinvent every wheel based only on your own experience and judgement. That’s a front row seat on the struggle bus. In an echo chamber it’s like having 100 guys just like you on the bus - the conversation noise is louder, but no smarter.

It’s like telling little Timmy in kindergarten that nobody likes an ahole, so be nice to people or it’s a natural consequence that people won’t like you. Fast forward to high school and little Timmy’s girlfriend dumped him for being a jerk and you remind him that being dumped is a natural consequence of being an ahole. He gets married and then divorced for being an ahole, then it sinks in that what he learned in kindergarten was true. Some people just have to learn it the hard way. Lol

 

[Choupique]

green loctite

You jest, but green loctite is retaining compound which is made for fitting bearings and is some nuclear grade stuff. I've contemplated putting it on my scope tube but i aint that worried about all this. It would work wonderfully for that. Would also be great for bonding the rail to the rifle and the rings to the rail. My stuff works for me and I have the dreaded Talley lightweights! Maybe it'll cost me an elk one day, but I'm not past seeing one to shoot at yet so odds are low.

I am an engineer and self proclaimed fastener nerd, as it is a big deal with high power rotating equipment. All the mental masturbation is fine since it really doesnt matter for most of us. So many people use junk scopes on junk rifles in junk rings installed by drunk idiots shooting junk bullets and are fat dumb and happy their whole lives doing it, and good for them for probably worrying about more important things in life.

Form is irrefutably correct here. Properly prepped fasteners installed with the appropriate grade loctite and torqued to the proper stretch will be far more resistant to vibrating loose than ones installed dry or petro-lubed. It is standard practice to follow with critical rotating equipment, with the ultra important stuff being wire tied as well.

It's unfortunate that torque is what we are forced to use to gauge clamp load. If we could properly tension studs on this stuff that'd be real cool.

 

[Choupique]

I had some more thoughts on this over my beer on the back porch. The way to really do this right within the contraints of what most of us have to work with would be to make the only removable interface be between the rings and rail. In the event you need to change the scope, toss the rings and the scope and everything in the garbage, and assemble another set of scope and rings permanently bonded together with retaining compound, and screws bonded in with 262 loctite. The scope tube to ring interface is the only one that can't be mechanically fixed via pins or notch/groove, so it needs to be both clamped and bonded. Ring to rail interface should be set and gap-filled with epoxy. Rail to rifle should be bonded down with retaining compound, screws degreased and installed with 262.

THAT would never shake loose.


But, aint nobody got time for all that.

 

[CampSmith]

There are a few hard ways to go through life and one of them is as an experiential learner that discounts the knowledge and experience of others that came before, and you have to reinvent every wheel based only on your own experience and judgement. That’s a front row seat on the struggle bus. In an echo chamber it’s like having 100 guys just like you on the bus - the conversation noise is louder, but no smarter.

It’s like telling little Timmy in kindergarten that nobody likes an ahole, so be nice to people or it’s a natural consequence that people won’t like you. Fast forward to high school and little Timmy’s girlfriend dumped him for being a jerk and you remind him that being dumped is a natural consequence of being an ahole. He gets married and then divorced for being an ahole, then it sinks in that what he learned in kindergarten was true. Some people just have to learn it the hard way. Lol

Very well said. It's like finding a really old treestand deep in the woods and saying why tf would a hunter ever put a stand there that's not what I would ever do. Guy doesn't know shit about hunting. Or me watching the old gunsmith down the street from me work on guns and saying to myself he has know idea what he's doing bet I can figure out a better way to work on guns and the mentor that taught me woodsmanship how to shoot and hunt and saying you're not a good hunter. I can do better. I'll figure it out without you on my own. The lessons and knowledge of those that came before us is invaluable and I will always be thankful and feel privelaged to learn from them.

 

[SDHNTR]

You jest, but green loctite is retaining compound which is made for fitting bearings and is some nuclear grade stuff. I've contemplated putting it on my scope tube but i aint that worried about all this. It would work wonderfully for that. Would also be great for bonding the rail to the rifle and the rings to the rail. My stuff works for me and I have the dreaded Talley lightweights! Maybe it'll cost me an elk one day, but I'm not past seeing one to shoot at yet so odds are low.

I am an engineer and self proclaimed fastener nerd, as it is a big deal with high power rotating equipment. All the mental masturbation is fine since it really doesnt matter for most of us. So many people use junk scopes on junk rifles in junk rings installed by drunk idiots shooting junk bullets and are fat dumb and happy their whole lives doing it, and good for them for probably worrying about more important things in life.

Form is irrefutably correct here. Properly prepped fasteners installed with the appropriate grade loctite and torqued to the proper stretch will be far more resistant to vibrating loose than ones installed dry or petro-lubed. It is standard practice to follow with critical rotating equipment, with the ultra important stuff being wire tied as well.

It's unfortunate that torque is what we are forced to use to gauge clamp load. If we could properly tension studs on this stuff that'd be real cool.

This is correct. Actually, green Loctite could be the solution everyone here is looking for. It’s a wicking compound. You drop it on AFTER torquing down the screw. So you can dry torque to get an accurate value, and then apply and it will wick down into the threads. I’ve used it on two scopes so far and no issues. Disassembles like blue.

There you go. We can stop arguing now.