Rifle and manufacturing quality today

[Mr. October]

Hey everyone . . long time reader first time poster here. I bought my first new rifle in 30 years this year. My old hunting rifle is a Ruger 77 MKII in .30-06. I've killed all sorts of deer, elk, and moose with it. Until recently, the rifle was in original factory configuration including the old walnut stock with thin recoil pad and the original trigger. After my last moose hunt and getting beat up by heavier loads, I changed out the stock for a Boyd's laminated stock and better recoil pad. At the same time, I swapped the trigger for a Timney. Both were great improvements and my old rifle still shoots lights-out. < 2" groups at 200 yards. But now it weighs about 12 lbs. with the heavier stock.

So I went in search of a lighter, more compact rifle with less recoil. I've always been fond of the 7mm-08 cartridge and am a lefty. I chose a Christensen Arms Mesa. Long story short, it is back at the factory due to accuracy issues. I'm hoping they make it right but since my issues I've been reading about lots of folks having similar issues with CA and other similar brands and rifles in similar price ranges. It seems like aside from the Tikka, production rifles just aren't that great anymore. Maybe I am overstating the problem but I feel like you shouldn't' have to spend huge $$ to get a custom rifle that can shoot factory ammo reasonably well. I do reload but feel it shouldn't be necessary. Especially in a $1500.00 - $2000.00 rifle. What is puzzling is that 30+ years ago when I bought my Ruger, you could buy just about any off-the-shelf rifle and get reasonable accuracy and reliability. Heck some of my friends are still shooting rifles purchased at the same time and before with great results. I know different rifles like different ammo but it seems to me if they are so finicky only one or two brands of ammo or specific handloads will do, there is a problem. My old rifle certainly likes some loads better than others, but I can stuff just about any factory .30-06 load in it and still get pretty good results and not the wild groups you see some of these new guns shooting.

How is it possible that with all the modern manufacturing processes we just can't build good rifles? I suppose the manufacturing is all about quick out the door and cutting corners and to hell with quality? Or maybe the problem just isn't as bad as it appears to be.

*** First post fail ***
I meant to put this in "Firearms" but can't delete or move it.

 

[Michael54]

Sounds like you bought a dud. There are a lot of rifles that guarantee moa or better accuracy out of the box for a 3rd of what you paid. I just bought my kid brother a ruger american in 30-06 that shoots sub 1" groups at 100 yards with core lokts.

 

[Clarence]

Sounds like you bought a dud. There are a lot of rifles that guarantee moa or better accuracy out of the box for a 3rd of what you paid. I just bought my kid brother a ruger american in 30-06 that shoots sub 1" groups at 100 yards with core lokts.

Did the same. Those Rugers aren't a very sexy choice, but they do seem to shoot. To the O.p.'s point, I would be quite fussy as well after making that kind of investment, and having my new rifle at the factory when I want it in the field. I 'm sure all factories put out a dud at times, how many, and what they do about it after the fact determines alot. You would hope buying a rifle at that price point, these hassles could be avoided. I am far more patient with a 350 dollar rifle, than a 1200 dollar rifle. Expectations are different. Hope Christenson makes it right.

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[Titan_Bow]

Savage 10/110 series or Ruger Americans are both great rifles and you rarely hear people having significant problems with them. I think in the low price points, rifles are manufactured way better than they were when I was a kid, at least at that low price point. I do however wish I still had the 7mm08 I shot my first deer with, it was an early 80s Remington Model Seven. That was a pretty little rifle!
I bought a Savage Lightweight Hunter for my son in 6.5CM. And it’s a great little rifle. I’ll admit, I did have some issues being consistent with it at first, I really feel like it was due to my lack of experience with really light rifles. Anyways, I picked up the rifle for 400 bucks from a guy, still had the tags on it. I ended up putting it in a Bell and Carlson stock and I swapped out scopes from an ultralight Leuy to a Vortex I had laying around. The rifle still comes it right at 7 lbs or just under, but it shoots same hole groups at 100 with Hornady Precisoon Hunter factory ammo.
I also have a little older Savage 16, bone stock, in 270 WSM. Again, it is a laser gun, 1/2 to 3/4 inch groups at 100 with Nosler Trophy Grade and 140 Accubonds.
I know several folks with Ruger Americans and they love them as well.
I just don’t get the hate around here for cheap rifles LOL. I have beat the hell out of my Savages, wipe em down and clean em and they are as good as new! I know they are going to hit where I want them to and from that point, it’s all the bullet anyways. I’ve killed a pile of animals with guns that didn’t cost more than 400 to 600 bucks, and more than once have been impressed with how well they perform.


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[FLS]

Unless you are buying a rifle from a builder doing them one at a time they are all mass / batch produced and some will shoot better than others.
I think overall rifles are better today than 10- 20 years ago with some exceptions. Ammo and optics are definitely better, which will help the average mass produced rifle shoot better.

 

[Rich M]

Hope you get it all ironed out. 7-08 is a nice cartridge.

You may have fallen for the fan-boys and advertisers. That CA will shoot lights-out with the right ammo.

But so will a Ruger American, the equally "as cheap" Savage rifles, Thompson, and so many more also shoot just as good and cost less even. The machining equipment and practices are light years better and the barrels shoot better because of it. The downsides are the plastic parts that get incorporated and those wear out unlike the older guns being all cast or machined metal.

Tikka aint all that - lotsa fan boys on here. Its a nice gun but there are others in the same price range that are just as good. I'd own a Tikka, nothing against them.

 

[Mr. October]

Hope you get it all ironed out. 7-08 is a nice cartridge.

You may have fallen for the fan-boys and advertisers. That CA will shoot lights-out with the right ammo.

But so will a Ruger American, the equally "as cheap" Savage rifles, Thompson, and so many more also shoot just as good and cost less even. The machining equipment and practices are light years better and the barrels shoot better because of it. The downsides are the plastic parts that get incorporated and those wear out unlike the older guns being all cast or machined metal.

Tikka aint all that - lotsa fan boys on here. Its a nice gun but there are others in the same price range that are just as good. I'd own a Tikka, nothing against them.

Actually I don't watch much TV, etc. so didn't really notice any advertising. After I ordered I saw Shockey switched to them. (I'll bet they made sure his shoots well.) I'm a lefty so there aren't a lot of options these days for lighter rifles in a specific cartridge. CA fit the bill with several offerings in left-handed. I refuse to purchase a non-left handed bolt. It limits my options but if 1/2 the lefties that settle for right handed actions were to insist on left hand guns, there'd be more offerings out there. And it is exactly the plastic parts that kept me away from some of the cheaper options. Just not a fan. My old Ruger has survived some pretty rough treatment and I know plastic would not have held up.

 

[Clarence]

Actually I don't watch much TV, etc. so didn't really notice any advertising. After I ordered I saw Shockey switched to them. (I'll bet they made sure his shoots well.) I'm a lefty so there aren't a lot of options these days for lighter rifles in a specific cartridge. CA fit the bill with several offerings in left-handed. I refuse to purchase a non-left handed bolt. It limits my options but if 1/2 the lefties that settle for right handed actions were to insist on left hand guns, there'd be more offerings out there. And it is exactly the plastic parts that kept me away from some of the cheaper options. Just not a fan. My old Ruger has survived some pretty rough treatment and I know plastic would not have held up.

I agree with your logic. Sounds like you use your rifle hard. If you want a rifle without alot of plastic, you are at a substantially higher price point. It is just always disappointing when you do your homework, and buy a product you feel will best serve you, and expectations aren't met. Please keep us posted on how your experience is with Christensen customer service. I don't blame you at all for only buying lefty rifles. Fit and comfort are a major component to good shooting.

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[Mr. October]

I agree with your logic. Sounds like you use your rifle hard. If you want a rifle without alot of plastic, you are at a substantially higher price point. It is just always disappointing when you do your homework, and buy a product you feel will best serve you, and expectations aren't met. Please keep us posted on how your experience is with Christensen customer service. I don't blame you at all for only buying lefty rifles. Fit and comfort are a major component to good shooting.

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And I'm not trying to dime out CA as a poor purchase. When I called they were very interested in solving the problem and making it right. I want to give them that chance. But as you said, it is disappointing.

 

[Clarence]

And I'm not trying to dime out CA as a poor purchase. When I called they were very interested in solving the problem and making it right. I want to give them that chance. But as you said, it is disappointing.

Good to hear. At this point, their response is what matters.

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[wind gypsy]

Sounds like you bought a dud. There are a lot of rifles that guarantee moa or better accuracy out of the box for a 3rd of what you paid. I just bought my kid brother a ruger american in 30-06 that shoots sub 1" groups at 100 yards with core lokts.

I've got a $2000 rifle with satisfaction guaranteed. They warranty replaced the first one and sent a second. The second doesn't shoot great either. At this point the cost of ammo and time invested in loading and range trips makes paying a gunsmith $700 to re barrel it more attractive than sending it back again.

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

The problem is every bit as bad as it appears to be. It goes back much further than my most recent 5 guns, but we'll discuss them for the sake of brevity.

I ordered a Remington 1100 12 ga, a Remington 5R HS Precision 223 and a Christensen Arms Mesa all at the same time. The Mesa had to go back for ejection issues and the 5R had to go back for feeding issues, a cracked stock and bottom metal discoloration. It's accuracy is unimpressive, but it may need to be shot in some.

I ordered a special run Ruger American Predator 17HM2 from Whittaker. It arrived without a magazine and the bolt was incredibly hard to close. I rejected acceptance. The replacement came in with an abnormally stiff bolt and it suffers the same extraction issues that plague so many Ruger American Rimfires.

Most recently I ordered a Nosler Liberty 6 Creed. It keyholed factory ammo at 50 yards. It is back at Nosler getting a new barrel. I won't get it back in time for hunting season.

The Nosler Liberty, Remington 5R HS Precision and the CA Mesa are not entry level or second rung guns. They tend toward the higher end of the spectrum. I expect better. I can't praise customer service of Ruger or CA because the first level of CS is delivering a product that functions as designed. Their problem resolution is very good. Nosler has been very unimpressive so far.

American firearm manufacturing is a goddam embarrassment. I am getting ready to do a major sell off and go exclusively with Tikka.

 

[Titan_Bow]

My Savage 270WSM is lefty, and the only plastic is the stock, which is easy to remedy. The B and C stock I put on my other Savage is light and has an aluminum bedding block, and it cost 250 or so if I remember correctly


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[HighUintas]

I'm a quality manager and it is a very hard and frustrating job. It often ends up taking a back seat to getting products out the door, even when the upper management and ownership say they're committed to quality... Even when upper management and ownership actually believe it themselves!! My job is often just an exercise in banging my head against a wll. A quality management system truly is everyone's responsibility within a company and it does require everyone to care and have an active role for it to be successful. So the fact that there are large companies that exist that are able to put so many rifles out there with a relatively minimal number of issues, like Tikka, is incredibly impressive to me!


That being said, I've been looking for new jobs and I noticed CA is actually hiring a quality engineer and a quality inspector. I don't know if they've not had much of a quality department until now, or if they decided to can those people that were in those positions, or something else. But I do find it interesting they're hiring both of those positions right now and it seems I've heard a little more about CA quality issues recently.

 

[ODB]

Quality issues aren’t all that new. I have three model 70s - 5,6 and 7 digit representing (according to some) three “quality” eras of the company. The 6 digit 338 win mag is a built-on-Friday, guy-was-half-drunk, don’t-give-a-shit rifle as far as finish- it is pretty bad. Rough, stamp is off, rails not properly finished...but it shoots less than .75 allll day long. The other rifles also shoot well. Luckily accuracy didn’t suffer due to finish issues. The last Ruger I owned was fit as a fiddle, but not accurate at all...

and “custom” guns are not immune to this either. I had a 9.3x62 Built on an FN Mauser and it wouldn’t feed worth shit and the scope bases were not correct. I had to have custom bases made and Also spent a couple days working with DArcy Echols to get the feeding right, all the while having been told it fed well from the original builder...nope...

 

[Mr. October]

I'm a quality manager and it is a very hard and frustrating job. It often ends up taking a back seat to getting products out the door, even when the upper management and ownership say they're committed to quality... Even when upper management and ownership actually believe it themselves!! My job is often just an exercise in banging my head against a wll. A quality management system truly is everyone's responsibility within a company and it does require everyone to care and have an active role for it to be successful. So the fact that there are large companies that exist that are able to put so many rifles out there with a relatively minimal number of issues, like Tikka, is incredibly impressive to me!


That being said, I've been looking for new jobs and I noticed CA is actually hiring a quality engineer and a quality inspector. I don't know if they've not had much of a quality department until now, or if they decided to can those people that were in those positions, or something else. But I do find it interesting they're hiring both of those positions right now and it seems I've heard a little more about CA quality issues recently.

Heck ya man! Go get a job with a rifle building company. Worst case at least you get an employee discount!

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

I'm a quality manager and it is a very hard and frustrating job. It often ends up taking a back seat to getting products out the door, even when the upper management and ownership say they're committed to quality... Even when upper management and ownership actually believe it themselves!! My job is often just an exercise in banging my head against a wll. A quality management system truly is everyone's responsibility within a company and it does require everyone to care and have an active role for it to be successful. So the fact that there are large companies that exist that are able to put so many rifles out there with a relatively minimal number of issues, like Tikka, is incredibly impressive to me!


That being said, I've been looking for new jobs and I noticed CA is actually hiring a quality engineer and a quality inspector. I don't know if they've not had much of a quality department until now, or if they decided to can those people that were in those positions, or something else. But I do find it interesting they're hiring both of those positions right now and it seems I've heard a little more about CA quality issues recently.

Go for it! I'd love to get your impressions from the inside.

 

[Rich M]

Actually I don't watch much TV, etc. so didn't really notice any advertising. After I ordered I saw Shockey switched to them. (I'll bet they made sure his shoots well.) I'm a lefty so there aren't a lot of options these days for lighter rifles in a specific cartridge. CA fit the bill with several offerings in left-handed. I refuse to purchase a non-left handed bolt. It limits my options but if 1/2 the lefties that settle for right handed actions were to insist on left hand guns, there'd be more offerings out there. And it is exactly the plastic parts that kept me away from some of the cheaper options. Just not a fan. My old Ruger has survived some pretty rough treatment and I know plastic would not have held up.

Me neither. I just know there is a lot of Tikka and CA talk on here.

You are right about getting the Left hand gun, I'm not lefty, but why should you have one with the bolt on the wrong side...

I'm sure they'll work it out, just sucks that you have to wait for them to get it right.

 

[SDHNTR]

I hear ya. Quality manufacturing takes a back seat to cost cutting measures these days. I’m over buying most factory rifles. I despise plastic on guns. The Tikkas and Savages and Ruger Americans that get touted on here are nothing I want in a gun.

Winchester and CZ Do still seem to put out products one can be proud of, for the price. If I had to go production, that’s where I’d focus.

 

[HighUintas]

Go for it! I'd love to get your impressions from the inside.

I'd love to. Unfortunately it would be a 70 minute commute, so I don't think it is likely.