Rifle Advice

[Rob5589]

@Map 1 @J Batt

I hear you both on the 6.5 not being an entirely better long range cartridge in terms of terminal performance. I'm not as stubborn as some in this thread would like to think . I think the 6.5 out shines the 270 in 2 places: 1) higher BC reducing wind drift 2) affordably of ammo. If I go the route of having only one gun for both practice & hunting, this may be it. Even if this means reducing my max effective range.

I'm keeping the .270, and will always have it. And if I am adding another gun, I think there are some more benefits to have by adding a different cartridge

To expand a bit more before I get hammered; as @J Batt and others have mentioned. The wind has made a fool out of me a lot and is a heavy consideration on my overall cartridge choice. Maybe the wind is still even making a mental fool of me as I mentally weigh cartridges based minimizing the effect of the wind. The thought here is this is a consideration of what I consider a "forgiving" setup. In the field I'm a hold over for wind guy. This does not mean I will ignore wind and take shots I think are bad or high risk. But in a light wind scenario, I think there is a greater benefit to a higher BC round. Anyone; feel free to tell me I'm wrong here.

I also hear the argument that without that 2000+- shots a year, I have no business in the 600-800 effective range. Loud and clear. I understand that a setup alone does not get me there, and that I have a ton of practice to do before I consider this range. But I want a setup to work my way towards that goal.

To those that recommend a two gun approach: .223 and an another cartridge. I hear you, it is a consideration. My hesitation is that I do want a pistol grip style chassis system. I shoot my AR a lot and think my shot process is much better ( more comfortable). Just a preference. Because of cost, its less feasible to put together two "identical" setups. Again I would prefer the 1 setup or 2 identical setup approach; but what are some issues with the majority of practice with an AR? Maybe shooting a few hundred through the AR for every 20 from the hunting rig, or shooting a couple thousand through the AR; then switching solely to the hunting rig a few months out?

Take this for what it's worth. When I started shooting long range (1000 yds) type matches the top guys told me to buy a .308 if I wanted to really learn wind calls. Why? Because I would learn to read wind vs trying to "out BC" the wind. Makes sense when you think about it. Many people, myself included, initially think they can "BC" their way around the wind. Doesn't work.

 

[Flyjunky]

Take this for what it's worth. When I started shooting long range (1000 yds) type matches the top guys told me to buy a .308 if I wanted to really learn wind calls. Why? Because I would learn to read wind vs trying to "out BC" the wind. Makes sense when you think about it. Many people, myself included, initially think they can "BC" their way around the wind. Doesn't work.

I get the sentiment but you have to learn wind no matter what bullet your shooting and I'd personally rather practice with something I might be hunting with.

 

[wyo]

Since you already have an AR, snag a SWFA fixed power and some heavies and get a little longer-range trigger time while you decide what you want. Hopefully you already have a quality trigger group or you'll want to make that investment as well but all good ARs deserve a good trigger. And if you end up with something in a chassis you might decide your AR is similar enough in ergos to fill the role of the trainer. Good luck

 

[Rob5589]

I get the sentiment but you have to learn wind no matter what bullet your shooting and I'd personally rather practice with something I might be hunting with.

Absolutely. I equate it to shooting distances beyond your intended kill range. Makes the closer shots seem easier.

 

[dsotm]

"I'd like some advice but only the advice I agree with, everyone else keep your opinions to yourselves"

 

[Rfogelman656]

I get the sentiment but you have to learn wind no matter what bullet your shooting and I'd personally rather practice with something I might be hunting with.

Good point(s). Can’t out BC the wind. But I believe that I will ever be a wind master and not screw up. More about compounding improvements and hedging against risk and doubt. More of a personal style.

So someone doesn’t jump on me here: I’m not trying to beat all conditions and force shots. Might not seem like it to most; but I’ve passed on quite a few archery shots that I didn’t feel comfortable taking in the moment. Several of them would; with as much certainty as there is in hunting; have worked. But I didn’t force them in the moment and don’t regret that.

 

[Rfogelman656]

Since you already have an AR, snag a SWFA fixed power and some heavies and get a little longer-range trigger time while you decide what you want. Hopefully you already have a quality trigger group or you'll want to make that investment as well but all good ARs deserve a good trigger. And if you end up with something in a chassis you might decide your AR is similar enough in ergos to fill the role of the trainer. Good luck

Thanks for the reply. My AR could use a better trigger. Good excuse to buy something shortterm $$$. I did run my sightmark on it for a while because it can handle the semi automatic recoil.

 

[Antares]

I have been informed by HR that I crossed the line. I would like to apologize to everyone, especially @Rfogelman656, for my unhelpful comments.

 

[stanginthe11s]

first off, don't let anyone fool you with the LR hunting and wind. there are very, very few people who don't use dope charts when it comes to LR. you don't need to be a "wind master", you just need to have an idea of what the wind is doing and go from there. as far as BC, it doesn't matter if a bullet drifts 12" or 10 feet. what matters is that you know what it drifts and have learned through trial and error how to compensate for it. its not as hard as you think, but you have to first let go of the fear of messing up.

 

[9.3koolaid]

it can handle the semi automatic recoil.

>What did he mean by this?

 

[Rfogelman656]

>What did he mean by this?

Not that I’m an expert, but I’ve been told that the recoil is different due to the fact that the action pushes a round forward and that bolt stopping forward can have an accelerated wearing effect; or break sights intended for bolt action.

 

[Lawnboi]

I think you could get away with just a 6.5cm if it’s suppressed. Non braked bare muzzle in a light gun it can be a little more difficult to control.

Of course you won’t have the barrel life of the 223. Or low cost components/ammo.

Recoil matters, worry about cheating the wind when you have the ability to outshoot whatever you get. By then you will be able to answer this question for yourself.

 

[id_jon]

I gotta say, I am kinda surprised that I haven't seen any mention of dry fire, unless I just missed it. Obviously it won't help you with wind calling as much, but you can figure out your field positions and get lots of trigger presses for free. If you want to make it even better, get one of these: http://dstprecision.net/what-is-a-dfat.html
Then you'll be able to see what shrinks your wobble zone best, and with their target packs, you can simulate wind/hold scenarios and at least get the mental practice, albeit without the feedback of firing. At the very least, with sufficient dry fire, everything pre-shot will be well practiced by the time you get to the range, so that you can focus on post-trigger press at the range.

 

[Rfogelman656]

I gotta say, I am kinda surprised that I haven't seen any mention of dry fire, unless I just missed it. Obviously it won't help you with wind calling as much, but you can figure out your field positions and get lots of trigger presses for free. If you want to make it even better, get one of these: http://dstprecision.net/what-is-a-dfat.html
Then you'll be able to see what shrinks your wobble zone best, and with their target packs, you can simulate wind/hold scenarios and at least get the mental practice, albeit without the feedback of firing. At the very least, with sufficient dry fire, everything pre-shot will be well practiced by the time you get to the range, so that you can focus on post-trigger press at the range.

Well I’d intended for this to being more of a setup discussion than shooting advice. More so because I knew that could change the corse of conversation; and it did.

But since we are talking shooting; I was going to comment before about dryfire. As mentioned, I get lots of Archrey reps in. 10+- a day at 5 yards in my garage because dry-firing a bow is not a thing. I have a “garage gym” and do these reps during workouts with elevated heart rate and or sometimes with my morning coffee. Certainly helps a lot for when I do get to the range or shoot 3d. The whole having a process aspect helps alot. I’ve dry fired my Savage a ton, and plan to add dry fires to my routine.

I think dry fire rifles (and pistols) are extremely important for process development, and muscle memory. I’ve never seen that adapter from dts. That is awesome. Thanks for sharing that, certainly getting one!
I also live 15 minutes from where the Pines meet the Sage. All BLM/Forestry land as my shooting playground. I’ll admit, I don’t have a serious shooting plan yet, but I am obsessive by nature it will find a groove with a lot of practice.

 

[Formidilosus]

Well I’d intended for this to being more of a setup discussion than shooting advice. More so because I knew that could change the corse of conversation; and it did.

Because starting at setups is putting the cart before the horse. How can you buy a thing for something that you don’t understand? Asking what cartridge to kill animals with at 800 yards-without any experience, is like saying “I’m going to play in the NBA, which sneakers should I get”? Without ever playing basketball. Learn to play first.


You’re responses have shown that you do not understand the task you are inquiring about. If you care more about how you feel about the information given to you, than you do about the veracity of the information provided… ok I guess. I don’t care one bit how I “feel” about the information given to me- I want the truth.
I asked you specific questions to gauge my response before I ever suggested anything. Your answers to those questions showed that you were asking the wrong question to begin with. Someone, who self admittedly- “Have not shot the rifle much in the past few years”, and also doesn’t have a background in LR shooting, isn’t going to get much out of a “which rifle” thread because you don’t understand the task enough to separate information into useful and non-useful. Someone that wants to extend their competent hunting range, needs to be asking “how do I learn to shoot at distance”.

I’m not into blowing smoke or talking about things that “ I like, I feel, or I believe”. I see multiple people make the transition from normal shooters/hunters to being competent past 400 yards every year in the west, and get to see in shining color the success and failures of different people, techniques, and equipment near daily. In being apart of hundreds of animals being killed between 600 and 800 yards, the differences between methods is stark.
I won’t clutter your thread up anymore as you are not interested in being helped to actually achieve what you stated; but everything I wrote was as blunt and clinical as it could be and without emotion.

 

[svivian]

Because starting at setups is putting the cart before the horse. How can you buy a thing for something that you don’t understand? Asking what cartridge to kill animals with at 800 yards-without any experience, is like saying “I’m going to play in the NBA, which sneakers should I get”? Without ever playing basketball. Learn to play first.

How Dare you use basketball as a reference!

Kidding kidding inside joke

 

[35WhelenAI]

Because starting at setups is putting the cart before the horse. How can you buy a thing for something that you don’t understand? Asking what cartridge to kill animals with at 800 yards-without any experience, is like saying “I’m going to play in the NBA, which sneakers should I get”? Without ever playing basketball. Learn to play first.

Heavens sake Form, "sneakers" hasn't been used in decades.

With that said, I differ with the NBA analogy. Having played at most every level, the shoes don't make the player. Its's immaterial to doing the job at hand, so many will work. Experience makes the player as you said. Next time, try ""Like saying "I'm going to play in the NBA without ever having set foot on a basketball court"".

 

[Tylsmith33]

Just go buy a “guaranteed sub moa” 7 prc and some 162 eldx ammo type the on box muzzle velocity into the free app dial your viper pst take 3 shots at 500 yards and join probably 75% of the “long range hunters” out there.
Personally to me it sounds like you want an excuse to buy a new elk rifle, if that is the case go get one buy multiple boxes of factory ammo see what shoots out of it at 200 yards, since you don’t reload. go shoot it in wind at actual 5” targets at multiple ranges in multiple weather and wind conditions don’t bullshit yourself and say well I was on paper at 600 today. When you can go out set the target, call the wind, put in the correct dope, stack 3 shots inside 5” at 600-800 yards on any given day, it doesn’t matter how many rounds you have shot in your life, because it won’t matter what anybody’s opinion is but yours and you won’t ask for approval but will see what guys you should listen to and which ones are chimneys.

 

[Rfogelman656]

Because starting at setups is putting the cart before the horse. How can you buy a thing for something that you don’t understand? Asking what cartridge to kill animals with at 800 yards-without any experience, is like saying “I’m going to play in the NBA, which sneakers should I get”? Without ever playing basketball. Learn to play first.


You’re responses have shown that you do not understand the task you are inquiring about. If you care more about how you feel about the information given to you, than you do about the veracity of the information provided… ok I guess. I don’t care one bit how I “feel” about the information given to me- I want the truth.
I asked you specific questions to gauge my response before I ever suggested anything. Your answers to those questions showed that you were asking the wrong question to begin with. Someone, who self admittedly- “Have not shot the rifle much in the past few years”, and also doesn’t have a background in LR shooting, isn’t going to get much out of a “which rifle” thread because you don’t understand the task enough to separate information into useful and non-useful. Someone that wants to extend their competent hunting range, needs to be asking “how do I learn to shoot at distance”.

I’m not into blowing smoke or talking about things that “ I like, I feel, or I believe”. I see multiple people make the transition from normal shooters/hunters to being competent past 400 yards every year in the west, and get to see in shining color the success and failures of different people, techniques, and equipment near daily. In being apart of hundreds of animals being killed between 600 and 800 yards, the differences between methods is stark.
I won’t clutter your thread up anymore as you are not interested in being helped to actually achieve what you stated; but everything I wrote was as blunt and clinical as it could be and without emotion.

Would love to hash it out.

When you started questioning me initially, I kept my awnsers honest but vague. That intent was to try to keep to the topic of setup. I probably could have explained that I used to shoot a lot more. Probably not “a lot” by your standards, but after a few OTC rifle tags I was very discouraged with rifle opportunity so I switched to Archrey. Spent years working hard, learning and finding success.I recently renewed my interest in rifle hunting after drawing an unexpected deer tag and finding success. So I’m ready to jump back in. I also have a good family friend, a deputy and former servie member who is on the local swat squad. He also happens to be a shooting instructor. Part of my; as everyone likes to call it: “cart before the horse” is that I’d like a better long range setup to start shooting again. I didn’t feel you needed my whole life backstory to ask for setup advice, my bad, but there it is.

I’m not arguing with any of the information you provided. I knew going in that it would be a lot of work. I’m objective enough to recognize that it may be more work that I was prepared for and that the 600-800 could be to big of a bit to take. I very much respect it and have considered it.

I did go overboard in my reaction to your recommendation of the .223. I didn’t ( and still don’t) know if you were recommending to hunt or just to shoot. It not legal in Oregon to hunt elk with. I’ve since read some of the recommended reading on the .223 forum and it has changed my consideration on cartridge size.

Now onto the beef. I had a problem with the way you posed your questions and answers. I responded in kind and you did what I thought you would to: take my vague awnsers; you assumed you know enough about me publicly flaunt just how much I don’t know. Bonus: I’d bet money that you only asked those questions because you had already formulated your opinion that I was asking the wrong question. That is condescending and I don’t take kindly to that. It also opened up a free for all on me. As a newbie; that sucks. I would have respected it a lot more if you had come out the gate with telling me what you really thought. Seemed like a move that someone would make when they are worried about their own optics of what they have to say. Like I wouldn’t take your authority serious unless you really got the chance to tell me “what I need” rather that just give your opinion as advice.

You are also wrong; I do not care more about how I feel vs the truth of the information. Both can be true; i can take your advice and tell you I don’t like how you gave it. Look back at some of what I’ve written. I’m considering a totally different path based on yours and others recommendations and the 600-800 may be to much. You can I can agree to disagree on how it played out if that is what it comes down to here. If you’re done than so am I.

 

[Rfogelman656]

I have been informed by HR that I crossed the line. I would like to apologize to everyone, especially @Rfogelman656, for my unhelpful comments.

I think I saw it before HR stepped in. Gotta say, I chuckled. Spent time and thought up a good response too, darn.

I too was/would have been out of line in my response. I’m sorry as well.