Received the Vaccine today...

[NDGuy]

Who is saying COVID is a non-issue? Certainly not me. It's like cancer, or heart disease, or obesity. But it's not like the black plague, or even poverty. Yet, none of those other issues have generated as much discussion on this forum.

In the larger context our response to it has been much larger than it needed to be. The age adjusted death rate in 2020 was just as high in 2008, yet we weren't locking down the economy then to save lives. We have over-reacted, that's all. You all do what you want. I'll do what I want. And I will confront lies and judgements of my perspective (at my leisure, of course).

Exactly many treat this as if it was Ebola with a 50% death rate. This is a nasty virus, very deadly for old people, but so is the flu and pneumonia. The big issue is liberty and government overreach. Some believe people should choose to go to work, run their business, eat in a restaurant, and don't trust the government like me. They remember the CDC and Dr Faux saying don't wear masks and found out they were lying, because they wanted enough masks for health care workers. However, I was reluctantly ok with the initial 2 week flatten the curve in big cities. On the other extreme people believe every one MUST get a vaccine and everyone MUST do exactly what the government dictates, because they are scared and or believe in government to take care of them. Of course most people are somewhere in between the two extremes.

Wouldn't you rather overreact than underreact?

Initial shutdowns were because we didn't understand how dangerous it was. The rest of this year was the shitshow caused by hysteria, politics, and people arguing about masks working or not. It was a colossal failure from the top down on handling it and we should be worried about the next one that comes. That being said, it was a huge accomplishment developing treatments and very promising vaccines quickly.

I think we can all agree that when push comes to shove you are on your own and shouldn't rely on the gov. Let's just hope that mRNA technology holds true and is found to be safe long term because it will be an invaluable tool for a future viral outbreak.

 

[Billinsd]

Is cancer, heart disease or obesity contagious?

Pneumonia and the flu are and have kill 10s of thousands of Americans. I have asthma and have been hospitalized several times for bronchitis. I can get sever asthma when I get a respiratory infection. Desperate after getting several bronchitis infections and coughing up blood, I asked my allergist and an emergency room physician how I can prevent getting sick. Well the big one was the kids. They got older and less colds. Second stay 3 feet way from people and was my hands is what my emergency room doctor said he did. I adopted that and it worked great. I'd go to a meeting, shake hands, then run out and wash my hands. Also before COVID masks didn't protect you from disease, they protected others when you were coughing or sneezing. Only Asians wore masks and we all laughed at them because they are so neurotic. That's my take, however I'm an extremely logical engineer.

 

[Billinsd]

Wouldn't you rather overreact than underreact?

Great point!!! I'd rather overreact a wee bit. Like what happened on the flatten the curve, which was more than a bit. It depends a lot on where you live. In Neeew Yorrrrk citttty, I'm saying it with a Texas accent people live on top of each other and it was real bad. I believe that what's good in urban cities is not appropriate in rural area. I think the counties should decide what to do not the state or especially the Feds. I believe that going to the movies and huge gatherings spreads the virus and reluctantly am ok with local government temporary suspension. However, restaurants should be open and other businesses, with reasonable modifications to prevent the spread. I'm ok with the cdc giving recommendations and people deciding what to do. Right now we need to open up business, kids need to go to school, with modifications to help prevent the spread. I think everyone should get vaccinated, unless they really don't want to, to prevent the spread. What I don't want is permanent lockdowns, masks, social distancing forever, because there could be a vaccine immune strain out in the world, Dr Faux. Shaking hands, getting less than 3 feet from people, not washing your hands often is what logical, reasonable people like me who don't want to get sick will do. LOL I was doing it before.

 

[NDGuy]

Great point!!! I'd rather overreact a wee bit. Like what happened on the flatten the curve, which was more than a bit. It depends a lot on where you live. In Neeew Yorrrrk citttty, I'm saying it with a Texas accent people live on top of each other and it was real bad. I believe that what's good in urban cities is not appropriate in rural area. I think the counties should decide what to do not the state or especially the Feds. I believe that going to the movies and huge gatherings spreads the virus and reluctantly am ok with local government temporary suspension. However, restaurants should be open and other businesses, with reasonable modifications to prevent the spread. I'm ok with the cdc giving recommendations and people deciding what to do. Right now we need to open up business, kids need to go to school, with modifications to help prevent the spread. I think everyone should get vaccinated, unless they really don't want to, to prevent the spread. What I don't want is permanent lockdowns, masks, social distancing forever, because there could be a vaccine immune strain out in the world, Dr Faux. Shaking hands, getting less than 3 feet from people, not washing your hands often is what logical, reasonable people like me who don't want to get sick will do. LOL I was doing it before.

Amen, there is definitely a balance and I just hope we all take the lesson for the next go around if it comes in our lifetime.

We are fortunate it wasn't worse! Hope all is well Dakota brother, can't wait for the season!

 

[307]

Pneumonia and the flu are and have kill 10s of thousands of Americans. I have asthma and have been hospitalized several times for bronchitis. I can get sever asthma when I get a respiratory infection. Desperate after getting several bronchitis infections and coughing up blood, I asked my allergist and an emergency room physician how I can prevent getting sick. Well the big one was the kids. They got older and less colds. Second stay 3 feet way from people and was my hands is what my emergency room doctor said he did. I adopted that and it worked great. I'd go to a meeting, shake hands, then run out and wash my hands. Also before COVID masks didn't protect you from disease, they protected others when you were coughing or sneezing. Only Asians wore masks and we all laughed at them because they are so neurotic. That's my take, however I'm an extremely logical engineer.

I'm not sure what your point is.

Basically, hygiene and social distancing worked for you... I think we can all agree that they work quite well in minimizing most infectious disease.

Masks can reduce the 'effective range' of any vapor that's coming out of you? I think most would agree on that as well. Whether they protect the wearer much is more context dependent.

 

[TexasCub]

Great point!!! I'd rather overreact a wee bit. Like what happened on the flatten the curve, which was more than a bit. It depends a lot on where you live. In Neeew Yorrrrk citttty, I'm saying it with a Texas accent people live on top of each other and it was real bad. I believe that what's good in urban cities is not appropriate in rural area. I think the counties should decide what to do not the state or especially the Feds. I believe that going to the movies and huge gatherings spreads the virus and reluctantly am ok with local government temporary suspension. However, restaurants should be open and other businesses, with reasonable modifications to prevent the spread. I'm ok with the cdc giving recommendations and people deciding what to do. Right now we need to open up business, kids need to go to school, with modifications to help prevent the spread. I think everyone should get vaccinated, unless they really don't want to, to prevent the spread. What I don't want is permanent lockdowns, masks, social distancing forever, because there could be a vaccine immune strain out in the world, Dr Faux. Shaking hands, getting less than 3 feet from people, not washing your hands often is what logical, reasonable people like me who don't want to get sick will do. LOL I was doing it before.

The amount of Govt overreach was 100% political. Look at the difference between life in Texas or Florida vs California. Endless shut downs proved to be no more effective than not shutting down. This whole thing was blown the hell out of proportion nationwide. If you were elderly AND WITH underlying health conditions, you were most at risk just slightly more than any other Influenze/pneumonia or other repiratory bug that kills elderly annually. What we did to businesses and, children and families was way over the top. Local woman in her late 30's here saved for years and opened her business less than a month before the shutdowns, it ruined her. She committed suicide in January. 2.9 Million + people die every year in this country, we had 3.1 million die in 2020, this wasn't the Spanish Flu!

 

[Billinsd]

The amount of Govt overreach was 100% political.

I agree with everything else, however maybe the overreach was 99.9999% not 100%. However, I could be wrong.

 

[Billinsd]

I'm not sure what your point is.

Basically, hygiene and social distancing worked for you... I think we can all agree that they work quite well in minimizing most infectious disease.

Masks can reduce the 'effective range' of any vapor that's coming out of you? I think most would agree on that as well. Whether they protect the wearer much is more context dependent.

My point is I figured out how to be safe myself and from physicians long before COVID. My point is also that we don't need the government, quite the contrary. We all should and need to be responsible for ourselves instead of worrying about what others do or don't do. Masks were necessary for sick people when around others when they were coughing or sneezing. More important than masks was keeping 3 feet away from sick people, that's what health care workers did to stay safe.

 

[Billinsd]

Amen, there is definitely a balance and I just hope we all take the lesson for the next go around if it comes in our lifetime.

We are fortunate it wasn't worse! Hope all is well Dakota brother, can't wait for the season!

Thanks, I am in San Diego!! My uncle was from North Dakota and my ancestors lived in South Dakota briefly after the Civil War, but rushed back to Minnesota because South Dakota was so wild!!

 

[307]

My point is also that we don't need the government, quite the contrary. We all should and need to be responsible for ourselves instead of worrying about what others do or don't do.

Yeah, if we could accomplish this about 95% of all laws would become unnecessary. But... people... People are gonna' people.

 

[Billinsd]

Yeah, if we could accomplish this about 95% of all laws would become unnecessary. But... people... People are gonna' people

You and I disagree. California is a Nanny state and there are way too many laws. Sure it's a great idea to wear a helmet if you ride a bike or your kids does. I do, but what right does the government have to force this on people? None. What about smoking? Sure smoking is bad and I have asthma. Should there be laws against cigarette smoking ads, I reluctantly think so. I'm not an extreme Libertarian. Should smoking basically be banned, even outdoors? No. It's illegal to park in front of a fire hydrant in San Diego, however, many still park in front of hydrants. Then the city paints the curb in front of the hydrant, people still park next to hydrant and police don't enforce. Double parking is illegal, but parents do it in front of schools, freeway off ramps, stop lights, stores, soccer games. They park in intersections, on crosswalks. Police don't enforce. I "used" to get upset. I'd ask people why are you sitting in your car on the phone blocking me in? Why are you parking in the intersection? Uh, There is no other place to park, I'm in a hurry. There are signs on crosswalks stating it is a state law that you must stop for pedestrians. There are traffic signs at signals stating you must yield to pedestrians. The pedestrian light turns white 10 seconds before the light turns green. In California there are laws for everything and they are enforced randomly at best, even basic safety. In summary it's not the government's job to protect people from themselves.

 

[Alaskanopolis]

Just open things up. It's pretty simple.

We never should have allowed the government to wield that kind of authority. It's amazing what people will do or allow done to themselves when they're scared.

 

[Alaskanopolis]

I guess people got scared enough to throw Americans in concentration camps during WW2, so I suppose there is a precedent to go off of for the government to grossly abuse its power.

The state has long dictated what businesses are essential during times of trouble. In the US that extends back to the Revolutionary War. What justifies it (or what should count as times of trouble) is a legitimate debate, and even essential. Saying that the government doing it in any copacity is socialism is a lazy and ignorant argument, and a very tired trope.

It is also worth pointing out the post by @MattB that @FIGJAM was replying to had nothing to do with socialism; which is why my paragraph structure in the post you replied to clearly says that I consider the arguments that follows to be a "ridiculous strawman" so, thanks for highlighting what I already said. It takes special talent to pick a fight with ones own position

 

[Alaskanopolis]

And why did the government do that? You are playing a semantics game. The more important question is what is the fastest path to getting the government to open the economy in the context of the pandemic?

Why did the government put Japanese people in concentration camps during WW2? But wait, it was the war that did that, not the government, right? No, just like with the pandemic, people will allow gross abuses by the government to go unchecked if they're scared enough. Maybe people should have some courage and not let their fear cloud their judgment and principles.

 

[Alaskanopolis]

I'm a degreed engineer and I have a master's degree. I evaluate statistical models and their inputs fairly frequently (for a living), mostly to inform intelligent risk taking but for some other reasons too.

I'm definitely not going to pour through the raw data (is it even available?), but I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that:

1: the probability of contracting is low
1a: to my knowledge, I and my family haven't gotten it yet
1b: I and we don't plan on changing behavior, so there is a good chance we could avoid it before herd immunity is reached through infections and vaccinations
1c: rates of infection locally are dramatically lower than summer highs anyway (less than 10% of summer highs)

2: the impact of contracting is likely low, or even nil
2a: my family is young and healthy, no known comorbidities
2b: our extended family and friends are all healthy
2c: our extended family and friends can make the decision for themselves if they'd like to be vaccinated
2d: our extended family and friends can make the decision for themselves if they'd like to continue to see us

Based on 1 and 2, low impact, low probability, a risk mitigation strategy of "accept" seems most appropriate.

But, going on....

3: the long term risks of receiving the vaccine is unknown (duh)

4: we all plan on living a long time, so the impact of any long terms risks being realized would be greater for us than the general population

5: the near term risk of the vaccine may be higher for me and my kids
5a: I myself have had some fairly severe reactions to both medicines and foods
5b: my kids share my genetics, so they could be more likely to have a severe reaction as well

Add in to that, I put elk meat on my back and walk in the dark in the highest density grizzly bear areas in the lower 48. So, I clearly have a history of questionable decisions and risk tolerance.

Really, I hope the above demonstrates I've considered the issue with genuine thoughtfulness. I didn't have a conclusion in mind ahead of time; I thought about it and came to a decision for myself and my family. I'll admit we don't know everything. When it comes to uncertain outcomes, even making the right decision can end poorly, and the opposite is true as well.

*pore

 

[MattB]

Just open things up. It's pretty simple.

You don't understand the question, but that is not surprising. Wasn't it you that prognosticated this time last year that COVID would only kill 60K Americans?

 

[sahunter06]

Covid sucks, I'll get my vaccine here soon. I just treated a patient today, 33 years old and had no prior comorbidities, she spent 92 days in the hospital due to covid and is now working hard so she can walk more than 50ft without getting severe SOB

I’ve heard many stories of breathing issues from C-19. I have colleagues of mine that are having to use inhalers now, perfectly healthy prior to contracting the virus.

 

[Alaskanopolis]

Aren't there literally thousands of things that you do, mostly unknowingly, because some expert somewhere decided that's how it should be?

Do you personally oversee sanitization standards in the hospital where you child was born? Do you independently develop guidelines for vehicle tires, brakes, or any other component of automobile safety standards? Have you personally written codes for the electric wiring that runs through your house? Of course you didn't. There are nearly endless examples where you relied upon people who are actual experts in those various fields do determine what you should do.

All of this "I know best" is a facade. We rely on experts every day.

"I do my own research" is always good for a laugh. Most people who claim this couldn't recognize a basic statistical model if it bit them in the ass.You don't understand the question, but that is not surprising. Wasn't it you that prognosticated this time last year that COVID would only kill 60K Americans?

You don't understand the question, but that is not surprising. Wasn't it you that prognosticated this time last year that COVID would only kill 60K Americans?

I’m pretty sure he understands it perfectly. In a free society people should be free to choose whether or not they want to participate in the market place. The market will determine which businesses are critical. But, we as a nation have obviously lost our perspective, which is why we have half the population cheering on the State dictating every facet of not only our economy, but our social lives as well, like you wouldn’t expect from an authoritarian socialist State from the 20th century.

 

[MattB]

The amount of Govt overreach was 100% political. Look at the difference between life in Texas or Florida vs California. Endless shut downs proved to be no more effective than not shutting down.

That isn't really true, and using FL and TX as examples and not looking at the likes of AZ or SD minimizes the difference and doesn't paint an accurate picture. By way of comparison, AZ's death rate was 58% greater than CA's, SD's 51%, TX's 13%, and FL's 5%. MS was over 60% higher.

As a Californian I have been frustrated for months by the imbalance which heavily favored public health at the expense of the economy, but its simply not true to suggest the approaches were equally effective.

 

[MattB]

I’m pretty sure he understands it perfectly. In a free society people should be free to choose whether or not they want to participate in the market place. The market will determine which businesses are critical. But, we as a nation have obviously lost our perspective, which is why we have half the population cheering on the State dictating every facet of not only our economy, but our social lives as well, like you wouldn’t expect from an authoritarian socialist State from the 20th century.

So you believe that, in a construct where the government is essentially dictating the level of economic activity based on positivity rates and similar measures, the obvious answer is to just tell them to open things up and they will follow suit? That is ideological idiocy.