Received the Vaccine today...

[Ozarkansas]

This just isn’t true either - healthcare experts have been all over the place with their advice.

I’m open to having my mind changed on that, but I stand by it for now. Ever since last summer- once we knew the virus was probably airborne and much more infectious than the flu- the medical experts have largely agreed that social distancing and mask wearing would both help flatten the curve, and that the vaccine would be safe so long as it went through all the trials (unlike the Russian Sputnik vaccine, which skipped the last phase).

 

[Spoonman]

Lot of smoke and mirrors boys! The mask and the distancing have the flu at a all time low! So if the flu and the virus from China are transmitted the same way then......?!?! On another note, my uncle received the second shot on Monday morning, by 6pm that night he didn’t feel well. Didn’t sleep all night and by the Tuesday morning had a 103 temp that lasted till Thursday night. He is still sick this morning with bad aches and very foggy.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Also - just throwing this out there...why has COVID 19 turned into a global panemic, but Tuberculosis never was? How can some of you guys not see how politicized this whole thing was and is?

A total of 1.4 million people died from TB in 2019 (including 208 000 people with HIV). Worldwide, TB is one of the top 10 causes of death and the leading cause from a single infectious agent (above HIV/AIDS). In 2019, an estimated 10 million people fell ill with tuberculosis(TB) worldwide.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Also - just throwing this out there...why has COVID 19 turned into a global panemic, but Tuberculosis never was? How can some of you guys not see how politicized this whole thing was and is?

A total of 1.4 million people died from TB in 2019 (including 208 000 people with HIV). Worldwide, TB is one of the top 10 causes of death and the leading cause from a single infectious agent (above HIV/AIDS). In 2019, an estimated 10 million people fell ill with tuberculosis(TB) worldwide.

Tuberculosis IS a huge issue worldwide- its one of the things we are always extremely concerned about when we deploy to poorer countries. It just isn’t nearly as much of an issue in first world countries like ours. Same with HIV- it’s killing a shocking number of people in sub-Saharan Africa but the US mostly has it controlled now. We’re not there with COVID yet because it’s so new.

Lot of smoke and mirrors boys! The mask and the distancing have the flu at a all time low! So if the flu and the virus from China are transmitted the same way then......?!?! On another note, my uncle received the second shot on Monday morning, by 6pm that night he didn’t feel well. Didn’t sleep all night and by the Tuesday morning had a 103 temp that lasted till Thursday night. He is still sick this morning with bad aches and very foggy.

The flu and Covid are spread in similar ways but COVID is much more infectious and appears to be airborne, more like measles than the flu. That’s why flu cases have dipped so low but covid cases haven’t responded in the same way. This has been known for a while. Sorry to hear about your uncle, that’s a pretty severe reaction

 

[fwafwow]

I have less reason to listen to someone's arguments if they are never willing to concede that they are wrong on any point they have made (you can be wrong on a point and still be entitled to your broader opinion), or that someone else's argument is at least worth considering (well done @Ozarkansas). In that vein, and in response to some of the points above:

• The recommendations of politicians and medical experts has not been consistent - masks don't work, masks do work, flatten the curve, etc.;
• The scientific and medical community can be wrong, even if there is a majority or higher and widely held view - take 6 weeks of bed rest after a heart attack, perform a radical mastectomy for breast cancer, Vioxx, Thalidomide, etc. (and those are just the big ones that have been acknowledged - I bet there are more to come); and
• The shutdown was an unmitigated disaster that didn't work and definitely has unintended very material consequences that are seldom discussed by the media.

At the same time, even though I have conceded the above, that doesn't mean the current approach, advice, recommendations etc. are wrong - but I don't hold it against anyone to question them.

But folks who repeatedly cite the 0.5% mortality rate should at least consider that it may not the only way to view things, as (a) there is more than just a binary outcome (you can be in the broad survival percentage and still have stuff wrong with you, much worse than the flu), and (b) you might be in a different mortality category because you may have an unknown underlying condition (aren't many unknown until diagnosed?).

 

[fwafwow]

[snip]
I just find it hilarious because many of us are taking pills that have rediculous side effects, or consume food items and beverages that cause a multitude of issues over time...

Everyone is allowed take their own decision, especially when it comes to their health and what they put in their bodies... I just hope many of us are doing our research and not just listening to the masses... or confusing correlation to be causation..

Well said.

I'm not sure that you have to do your own research, as sometimes there is debate among the experts. There are things many of us are doing, pills we are taking, foods we are eating, etc. for which there are highly esteemed experts who argue against the majority and widely held view. Do you eat a "healthy" diet low in cholesterol and saturated fats, and/or take a statin to lower your cholesterol? There are doctors and scientists, and studies, that support the view that those actions are mistakes - and there are known serious side effects from statins. That doesn't mean you can't question other things - you should. But the vast majority of people have given far less consideration to perhaps much more dangerous recommendations over many years.

 

[Spoonman]

Tuberculosis IS a huge issue worldwide- its one of the things we are always extremely concerned about when we deploy to poorer countries. It just isn’t nearly as much of an issue in first world countries like ours. Same with HIV- it’s killing a shocking number of people in sub-Saharan Africa but the US mostly has it controlled now. We’re not there with COVID yet because it’s so new.

The flu and Covid are spread in similar ways but COVID is much more infectious and appears to be airborne, more like measles than the flu. That’s why flu cases have dipped so low but covid cases haven’t responded in the same way. This has been known for a while. Sorry to hear about your uncle, that’s a pretty severe reaction

I understand what you are saying but to me I still think it’s a bunch of hocus-pocus. Both the flu and Covid are transmitted multiple different ways (touch, droplets, and airborne), both of which are transmitted easier by touch and droplets and a small percentage by airborne. It just doesn’t add up that the flu is on vacation but covid has set up shop?! Now you can’t even have a sniffle without it automatically believed that you have covid. My wife is in the medical field and has been in actual contact with “positive “ covid patients and has tested negative 7 times and negative for the antibody test as well!?! Last February she was sicker than I had ever seen her with all the symptoms and in bed for 7-8 days with a overall time span of 19 days of being sick, and still test negative? Come on!!! Right after she was in contact with someone positive? You got to be kidding me? False negative? Bullshit? You tell me. The other issue is there has never once been consistency in what the doctors or politicians (like they have a clue) are telling us! They should just stick to taxing the shot out of us and giving it to other countries! That’s wha they really know how to do!

 

[Ozarkansas]

@fwafwow I have to clarify: the reason I picked last summer as my start date for the medical community being consistent is because you’re right, they WERE wrong early on. But people are talking like the medical community has flip-flopped weekly, when the reality is there was about a 2-3 month period where they were updating or revising their advice and estimates as they learned more, and then since then things have stayed pretty consistent. I may have taken too extreme of a position by overstating the consistency of medical opinion, but it’s still been really consistent for the past 8 months.

@Spoonman covid has a way higher r value (how easily it is spread) than the flu. Even though they’re spread in similar ways (although flu is droplet spread rather than airborne I believe) covid spreads much easier. you should take a look at CDC’s excess death data- Lots more people died last year than usual and it matched up pretty much perfectly with when we were seeing spikes in positive COVID tests.

 

[cuerro viejo]

The health expert thing is very interesting.

just a thought some might think about. ER doctors are employees, inpatient treatment protocol is dictated from above. Outpatient treatment is a lot more open minded.

 

[MattB]

Also - just throwing this out there...why has COVID 19 turned into a global panemic, but Tuberculosis never was? How can some of you guys not see how politicized this whole thing was and is?

A total of 1.4 million people died from TB in 2019 (including 208 000 people with HIV). Worldwide, TB is one of the top 10 causes of death and the leading cause from a single infectious agent (above HIV/AIDS). In 2019, an estimated 10 million people fell ill with tuberculosis(TB) worldwide.

It is likely because most of us understand the situations are vastly different. TB has been around a long time, is well-understood, treatable, and largely localized. As a result, it is not much of a factor in developed nations like the US (<9K cases and 515 US TB deaths in 2019).

COVID, on the other hand, is a novel virus that spread worldwide in only a few months despite unprecedented efforts to slow it and has killed ~470K Americans and 2.4 million worldwide.

What we do see is how politicized COVID has become. In fact just today I read something from a guy trying to dismiss it by comparing it to a disease that kills fewer Americans each year than COVID does in a few hours.

 

[fwafwow]

@fwafwow I have to clarify: the reason I picked last summer as my start date for the medical community being consistent is because you’re right, they WERE wrong early on. But people are talking like the medical community has flip-flopped weekly, when the reality is there was about a 2-3 month period where they were updating or revising their advice and estimates as they learned more, and then since then things have stayed pretty consistent. I may have taken too extreme of a position by overstating the consistency of medical opinion, but it’s still been really consistent for the past 8 months.

Yep - I wasn't taking issue with your point. I was conceding to another poster's point that there has been some inconsistency, and I think there is still some debate on finer points. I don't think there has to be unanimity on an issue. When there is, I believe we should all question whether the experts are really engaging in scientific analysis and debate. But consistency would be ideal - when it is even possible.

I'm trying to figure out whether TB is a red herring issue or not. If the point is that Covid (at least to some extent) is being handled politically - OK, fine. Agreed. But what does that mean? That everything that is said about it is wrong? That it's fake or hocus pocus? And if any of us think that politics are not otherwise involved in healthcare and medicine, I disagree. Heart disease kills more than 10x than TB in the world, and there is plenty of politics going on with respect to CVD - it's just not as obvious.

@Spoonman - thank you to your wife for being on the front line. I have no clue why her tests have been negative, but I suspect there is more likely a medical explanation than that all of the other information being completely made-up, false or voodoo magic. My son lived with me for 3 weeks when I had Covid (and we thought he had it), and had to do the same later with roommates in college who had Covid. But he's never tested positive for either the virus, or the antibodies.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Sorry guys, I am pretty passionate about this issue. I work as a financial institution regulator/insurer and have seen up close and personal the adverse impact of shutting down the economy over this thing. Thats on top of all of my friends and families businesses that have been hammered. I am not trying to claim COVID 19 is not real and precautions shouldn’t be taken. I just don’t feel like it is worth limiting the capacity in a restaurant or closing down movies theaters or disneyland. If you haven’t felt the financial impact you will eventually one way or another. The financial and psychological impact of COVID will be felt for a long time.

Also, it blows me away how many people are sheep and can’t think independently. Our ancestors who created this great country are rolling over in their graves. This thread was never about a vaccine...

 

[PredatorSlayer]

I also have two teenage kids whose worlds have been turned upside down. No sports, no school, no hanging out with friends...you had high hopes of getting a sports scholarship? Too bad - canceled! How is that ok? How is any of this ok?

 

[Marbles]

If you were really in the medical field you would know that.

How about you stop calling people liers.

If you really worked as a "financial institution regulator/insurer" you would know better.

I don't really mean that second statement, it is just an example to illustrate why I consider your quoted statement to be calling someone a lier.

Sweden and Texas (I was a fan of the Swedish model early on) are both example of how light regulatory approaches don't inherently give better economic outcomes. California is an example of how heavy handed regulation does not inherently give better health outcomes. All three example could generate many pages of analysis, and applicability of data between very different locations is suspect, but it is still useful to chalange our preconceived and simplistic notions about the best approach for a desired outcome.

 

[bushcamp]

there's a surprising number of people in this thread believing the official narrative. it's disappointing really. statistics is easily manipulated & accounting is rife with trickery. the media & the government are not your friends. the issues at play here are much larger than the virus or a supposedly benevolent jab. to each their own is the right answer, unfortunately a fearful herd tends to trample those who are not in step.

 

[fwafwow]

there's a surprising number of people in this thread believing the official narrative. it's disappointing really. statistics is easily manipulated & accounting is rife with trickery. the media & the government are not your friends. the issues at play here are much larger than the virus or a supposedly benevolent jab. to each their own is the right answer, unfortunately a fearful herd tends to trample those who are not in step.

Serious question - can you elaborate?

 

[MattB]

Serious question - can you elaborate?

Yeah, really. Maybe we are fortunate to have someone who understands the REAL issue at hand here and is willing to let the rest of us in on it?

 

[Glory]

One thing the pandemic has brought about are some very enlightened people who possess some special knowledge the rest of the population does not have. This knowledge was obtained through many minutes of watching YouTube videos on the subject produced by someone who also had spent several minutes “doing their own research” on YouTube and fringe blogs.

We are fortunate to have them among us to correct us and call us sheep.

 

[npm352]

I got my second dose of Moderna two days ago which was made available in my state because of my occupation. I am healthy and 36 and am not worried about the virus myself. I do, however, have an African safari booked for March and will need a negative COVID test leaving and returning to be able to get on the plane. It was an easy decision for me. I am used to traveling around Africa (backpacking and hunting) and having to produce a yellow fever vaccination card and many ports of entry. I imagine that eventually tests will phase out and traveling some places will require a recent COVID vaccine.

 

[IdahoElk]

So does the vaccine make you immune from getting Covid?