Realistic MOA Expectations vs Marketing

[Wyoming300]

I have two points here.

I only shoot 3 shot groups through hunting rifles. He barrels are tapered thin to save weight and only have 3 shot mags, they arent made for shooting 5+ shots in a row.

Wednesday i was kicking myself. I was shooting 3" groups wt 200 yards from a bench house.

Yesterday i shot the same gun same load laying on the ground in the mountains 20 mph wind and rain. Less than 1" group at 200 yards.

We all have bad shooting days.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I have two points here.

I only shoot 3 shot groups through hunting rifles. He barrels are tapered thin to save weight and only have 3 shot mags, they arent made for shooting 5+ shots in a row.

Wednesday i was kicking myself. I was shooting 3" groups wt 200 yards from a bench house.

Yesterday i shot the same gun same load laying on the ground in the mountains 20 mph wind and rain. Less than 1" group at 200 yards.

We all have bad shooting days.

Nothing wrong with shooting groups three at a time. Just put 10 shots into the group before you measure it. Three shots just isn’t enough to get a statistically significant picture of your cone of fire.

With a proper rifle barrel, it doesn’t matter if you take 10 minutes to shoot your group or 10 hours (assuming conditions remain the same), but judging where your bullets will go off of 3 shots is too small a sample size.

 

[Wyoming300]

Nothing wrong with shooting groups three at a time. Just put 10 shots into the group before you measure it. Three shots just isn’t enough to get a statistically significant picture of your cone of fire.

With a proper rifle barrel, it doesn’t matter if you take 10 minutes to shoot your group or 10 hours (assuming conditions remain the same), but judging where your bullets will go off of 3 shots is too small a sample size.

None of that is accurate for old tapered non fluted rifle barrels.

3 shots will be tight. Without pausing, 4-6 will be on the edge of that pattern, and 7-10 will double to tripple the pattern. Its science. Pencil thin magnum barrels are not made to shoot 10 shots in one group. They are made for 1 or 2 shots while hunting then cooling down. A lot of people who own hunting rifles know this. The first shot on a cold hunting rifle barrel is what you want to be zeroed for. Not the 20th shot with a sizzling hot barrel.

3 shots is perfect for showing what a rifle and shooter can do. Most people shooting more choose the ones they want and call the others fliers and dont count them.

 

[Formidilosus]

None of that is accurate for old tapered non fluted rifle barrels.

3 shots will be tight. Without pausing, 4-6 will be on the edge of that pattern, and 7-10 will double to tripple the pattern. Its science. Pencil thin magnum barrels are not made to shoot 10 shots in one group. They are made for 1 or 2 shots while hunting then cooling down. A lot of people who own hunting rifles know this. The first shot on a cold hunting rifle barrel is what you want to be zeroed for. Not the 20th shot with a sizzling hot barrel.

3 shots is perfect for showing what a rifle and shooter can do. Most people shooting more choose the ones they want and call the others fliers and dont count them.

“Pencil thin magnum barrels” aren’t “made” for shooting any size group. They’re just steel. The barrel doesn’t know how thick it is, and properly made extremely thin barrels shoot very well scorching hot.

Not one thing you are stating is factually correct.

 

[Wyoming300]

“Pencil thin magnum barrels” aren’t “made” for shooting any size group. They’re just steel. The barrel doesn’t know how thick it is, and properly made extremely thin barrels shoot very well scorching hot.

Not one thing you are stating is factually correct.

One of us understands barrels heat up after a few shots and things change.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

None of that is accurate for old tapered non fluted rifle barrels.

3 shots will be tight. Without pausing, 4-6 will be on the edge of that pattern, and 7-10 will double to tripple the pattern. Its science. Pencil thin magnum barrels are not made to shoot 10 shots in one group. They are made for 1 or 2 shots while hunting then cooling down. A lot of people who own hunting rifles know this. The first shot on a cold hunting rifle barrel is what you want to be zeroed for. Not the 20th shot with a sizzling hot barrel.

3 shots is perfect for showing what a rifle and shooter can do. Most people shooting more choose the ones they want and call the others fliers and dont count them.

You need to do more reading to understand statistics, cone of fire, and WEZ. Three shots is not enough samples to be a statistically accurate predictor.

There is no science showing that shots 4-10 will automatically fall outside the group from shots 1-3. It is simply more likely that any given three shots will be closer to one another than any given ten shots. That’s what makes three shots groups statistically unreliable. The odds of getting a fluke result (whether good or bad) from a 10-shot group are very small.

Shoot your three shot group. Let the barrel cool. Shoot three more. Repeat until you have at least 10 shots, you have a reasonable idea of the expected poi for any given shot.

As for the cold bore shot being different… that is usually a function of not having a group that is statistically large enough to matter. The cold bore shot falls within the true cone of fire.

There are plenty of people posting 10- or 20-shot groups on here without discounting so-called fliers.

 

[Formidilosus]

One of us understands barrels heat up after a few shots and things change.

That is correct.

 

[Wyoming300]

You need to do more reading to understand statistics, cone of fire, and WEZ. Three shots is not enough samples to be a statistically accurate predictor.

There is no science showing that shots 4-10 will automatically fall outside the group from shots 1-3. It is simply more likely that any given three shots will be closer to one another than any given ten shots. That’s what makes three shots groups statistically unreliable. The odds of getting a fluke result (whether good or bad) from a 10-shot group are very small.

Shoot your three shot group. Let the barrel cool. Shoot three more. Repeat until you have at least 10 shots, you have a reasonable idea of the expected poi for any given shot.

As for the cold bore shot being different… that is usually a function of not having a group that is statistically large enough to matter. The cold bore shot falls within the true cone of fire.

There are plenty of people posting 10- or 20-shot groups on here without discounting so-called fliers.

I would call that 3 seperate groups of 3. Exactly how many old hunting rifles with thin profile barrels are made to be shot.

 

[Wyoming300]

That is correct.

I should probably add, for clarity, im talking the old hunting rifles where after 5 shots of 300 win mag the barrel is so hot i see heat distortion in the scope.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

Have a random number generator pick 3 numbers between 1 and 100. The odds of a random number generator picking both 1 and 100 when selecting three distinct numbers between 1 and 100 are approximately 1:1649. Now imagine you didn't know the range was 1 to 100, and you were using that test to try and find out what the range was.

Same game, but a circle, with a lot more than a hundred random points inside that circle. Your gun is the random number generator, what do you think the odds are that any three random points in that circle are going to be on the outside edges? Let's just say, far worse than the odds of picking three random numbers from an unknown sample size and finding the extremes.

3 shot groups work great to verify you are still zeroed with a shooting system with a known capacity for accuracy. They are almost entirely worthless if you were trying to find out how accurate a shooting system is.

So, for me, once I have a load that looks promising, I run a 15 shot group. If that still looks promising, I'll run a 30. But still probably doesn't get me the real extremes, but it gets me close enough that it doesn't really matter. That establishes how accurate the shooting system is (me, gun, ammo, scope, etc, all part of the shooting system). Assuming I'm satisfied at that point, from then on I will shoot at most three round groups, often even just one or two, because all I'm doing is confirming the rifle is still at zero.

I have owned many (many) hunting rifles over the years, but only 3 that would legit drop 30 rounds at MOA or better. 1.25 to 1.5 is what a good one will do, and I have had bad ones (cough, Kimber, cough) that could barely stay on a sheet of paper at 100 yards.

 

[Formidilosus]

I should probably add, for clarity, im talking the old hunting rifles where after 5 shots of 300 win mag the barrel is so hot i see heat distortion in the scope.

Properly stress relieved barrels- regardless of age, do not “walk”, or “grow” in group size until they nearly start to glow. If their is residual stress in the barrel (most American made rifles) then they will start walking as they heat up- that is the group will start creating a line in a direction; not that the group gets larger but is still generally round.

3 shots does not show the true cone- that is the size target that the rifle mechanically will keep a high percentage of its shots on. Statistics are real, even in rifles.

 

[SDHNTR]

None of that is accurate for old tapered non fluted rifle barrels.

3 shots will be tight. Without pausing, 4-6 will be on the edge of that pattern, and 7-10 will double to tripple the pattern. Its science. Pencil thin magnum barrels are not made to shoot 10 shots in one group. They are made for 1 or 2 shots while hunting then cooling down. A lot of people who own hunting rifles know this. The first shot on a cold hunting rifle barrel is what you want to be zeroed for. Not the 20th shot with a sizzling hot barrel.

3 shots is perfect for showing what a rifle and shooter can do. Most people shooting more choose the ones they want and call the others fliers and dont count them.

Put away your old preconceived notions and be willing to learn. What you stated is incorrect.

You are not seeing “what a rifle can do” until you have shot 10+ shots into a group. 20 is even better. This has little to do with marksmanship and everything to do with statistics. You simply need a larger data set to see “what a rifle can do”. You need to reduce randomness. 3 shots is far too random.

If the heat (waves) is an issue, ok, just let the thing cool in between shots, but you need them all going into the same group before you can draw a conclusion about what your rifle/ammo system is capable of.

 

[Wyoming300]

Put away your old preconceived notions and be willing to learn. What you stated is incorrect.

You are not seeing “what a rifle can do” until you have shot 10+ shots into a group. 20 is even better. This has little to do with marksmanship and everything to do with statistics. You simply need a larger data set to see “what a rifle can do”. You need to reduce randomness. 3 shots is far too random.

If the heat (waves) is an issue, ok, just let the thing cool in between shots, but you need them all going into the same group before you can draw a conclusion about what your rifle/ammo system is capable of.

Big difference between shooting your 22 creedmore show rifle with a fluted target barrel and an old magnum hunting rifle with a thin barrel.

 

[Wyoming300]

Properly stress relieved barrels- regardless of age, do not “walk”, or “grow” in group size until they nearly start to glow. If their is residual stress in the barrel (most American made rifles) then they will start walking as they heat up- that is the group will start creating a line in a direction; not that the group gets larger but is still generally round.

3 shots does not show the true cone- that is the size target that the rifle mechanically will keep a high percentage of its shots on. Statistics are real, even in rifles

Properly stress relieved barrels- regardless of age, do not “walk”, or “grow” in group size until they nearly start to glow. If their is residual stress in the barrel (most American made rifles) then they will start walking as they heat up- that is the group will start creating a line in a direction; not that the group gets larger but is still generally round.

3 shots does not show the true cone- that is the size target that the rifle mechanically will keep a high percentage of its shots on. Statistics are real, even in rifles.

Why would anyone care in the least how an old hunting rifle groups with 10 shot groups? Thats in the category of things that are actually never ever going to be a consideration. Would not waste multiple boxes of $3 round hunting ammunition to shoot a group every 100 yards to 500. Never going to shoot that much hunting. Never going to shoot that much at targets since the barrel is blazing after 6. It simply does not matter.

I understand you guys just want to make the op feel bad because he has way less money into a rifle than most of you do, and you need to find some way to get him to shoot worse than you do.

Op shoot a 3 shot group, measure it, realize it will do anything you need and enjoy the rifle.

 

[SDHNTR]

Why would anyone care in the least how an old hunting rifle groups with 10 shot groups? Thats in the category of things that are actually never ever going to be a consideration. Would not waste multiple boxes of $3 round hunting ammunition to shoot a group every 100 yards to 500. Never going to shoot that much hunting. Never going to shoot that much at targets since the barrel is blazing after 6. It simply does not matter.

I understand you guys just want to make the op feel bad because he has way less money into a rifle than most of you do, and you need to find some way to get him to shoot worse than you do.

Op shoot a 3 shot group, measure it, realize it will do anything you need and enjoy the rifle.

You are missing the point entirely.

 

[Carl Ross]

Why would anyone care in the least how an old hunting rifle groups with 10 shot groups? Thats in the category of things that are actually never ever going to be a consideration. Would not waste multiple boxes of $3 round hunting ammunition to shoot a group every 100 yards to 500. Never going to shoot that much hunting. Never going to shoot that much at targets since the barrel is blazing after 6. It simply does not matter.

I understand you guys just want to make the op feel bad because he has way less money into a rifle than most of you do, and you need to find some way to get him to shoot worse than you do.

Op shoot a 3 shot group, measure it, realize it will do anything you need and enjoy the rifle.

I shoot 10 shot groups because that is the fastest way with the least use of ammunition to:

Have a high degree of confidence in where the gun is zero'd.
Have a medium degree of confidence how accurate that system is.

Nobody is trying to price or accuracy shame anyone, they're trying to share best practices. I for one don't encourage someone shooting a 10 shot proof group to shoot it so fast the barrel mirage is causing issues, and I bet the others you're talking with don't either.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Shooting only 3-shots into groups is being penny wise and pound foolish. Spend your money shooting a careful and deliberate group that is large enough to be statistically significant and get results worth something. You’ll save far more in the end than trying to see trends in results that are essentially random.

 

[wind gypsy]

Why would anyone care in the least how an old hunting rifle groups with 10 shot groups? Thats in the category of things that are actually never ever going to be a consideration. Would not waste multiple boxes of $3 round hunting ammunition to shoot a group every 100 yards to 500. Never going to shoot that much hunting. Never going to shoot that much at targets since the barrel is blazing after 6. It simply does not matter.

I understand you guys just want to make the op feel bad because he has way less money into a rifle than most of you do, and you need to find some way to get him to shoot worse than you do.

Op shoot a 3 shot group, measure it, realize it will do anything you need and enjoy the rifle.

It’s the opposite of making the OP feel bad. Rather he is being told the performance he was seeing is pretty normal and dudes who think a good 3 shot group is proof a rifles capability (like you) are misguided so don’t put too much stock in it.

 

[Southernfried]

Shooting only 3-shots into groups is being penny wise and pound foolish. Spend your money shooting a careful and deliberate group that is large enough to be statistically significant and get results worth something. You’ll save far more in the end than trying to see trends in results that are essentially random.

I liked your original post better lol but I understand lol