Realistic MOA Expectations vs Marketing

[n8outdoors]

So im going to throw my opinion in the ring.

#1 I think we have to set expectations about what is reasonable to expect out of a rifle. I have a T3x superlite in 308 stock @6.2lbs and a Savage 110 Tactical in 6.5CM stock @9lbs. I dont expect them to do the same things. I dont expect the savage to be as accurate and consistent as it is and be as light as the Tikka, just like I dont expect the TIkka to be as easy to shoot or be as consistent over long strings of fire as the Savage. Neither is a bad gun, they have different purposes.
Keep in mind the law of diminishing returns, 20% of the cost gets you 80% of the results. In other words the last 20% towards "perfect" is 80% of the cost. So just because an $800 rifle can be 1/4 moa doesnt mean a $3200 rifle will be 1/16 moa. In modern hunting rifles, more cost almost always means more exotic materials(CF, Ti, etc) in an effort to increase accuracy where it can but more likely to maintain accuracy while also saving weight.
Personally I think any bolt gun chambered in an "accurate" round should be capable of 1 MOA at least. The capabilities of modern manufacturing are such that anything outside that is unacceptable IMO. And companies like Ruger and Savage are showing that cheap guns can be extremely accurate.

Next about #3 and the MOA challenges.

I would guess that a ton, maybe most, of the people that show up/are chosen for these challenges do not or never have done any competition, and have never felt the pressure of that so THAT is likely the #1 reason for "terrible performance". Ive seen alot of rifles on those challenges that were almost certainly 1/4 to 1/2 MOA rifles. But if the shooter doesnt do everything right, you wont see that. I say that to illustrate that I dont think most of those shooters fail because of the rifle.

I have no idea if you can shoot. You have some perfectly respectable groups, so at the very least you have bursts of skill. But either you or your rifle/ammo are struggling to be consistent. The cheapest(and least glamorous/most boring, and also possibly the most productive) thing you can do is spend a bunch of time dry-firing to dial in your fundamentals. A ton of people will develop a flinch with a 7RM in a T3x. Not saying you are, but its a possibility. Rule it out.

Perfectly fair feedback. I shoot often, but not competitive often... I dry fire a ton and can watch vapor trails with impacts, so I don't think that's it. Like archery, I have a pre-set routine that helps a bunch. I'm more curious on factory ammo, and factory rifles, and what people think is acceptable. Next step for me, is reloading, which I've done with my Weatherby. But I need another hobby like I need another wife.

 

[huntnful]

Perfectly fair feedback. I shoot often, but not competitive often... I dry fire a ton and can watch vapor trails with impacts, so I don't think that's it. Like archery, I have a pre-set routine that helps a bunch. I'm more curious on factory ammo, and factory rifles, and what people think is acceptable. Next step for me, is reloading, which I've done with my Weatherby. But I need another hobby like I need another wife.

I don’t know if you’ve made the correlation yet, but it is almost totally cartridge size, and rifle weight (recoil) dependent. The “best” 7lb 300 PRC with the best factory ammo, is going to shoot larger groups than a “mediocre” 10lb 6 creedmoor with the best factory ammo.

And likewise, the same exact rifle platform, but dropping down in cartridge size, is going to shoot better. Generally.

So it’s kind of hard to say what is expected accuracy. Since it varies a lot, based on the decision you make for the rifle.

7lb 300 PRC. Maybe some 3/4” 3 shot groups, but most bigger.

10lb 6 creedmoor. I would expect a lot of 3 and 5 shot 1/2 MOA groups.

 

[huntnful]

I also don’t think you can reload an inaccurate rifle into some precision instrument. Obviously, it will help with consistency. But honestly, not that much.

The baseline for the rifle kind of just is what it is. If it shoots 5 different factory loads over 1” for 5 shots groups. It’s probably not going to shoot 1/2” 5 shots groups just because it’s better loaded ammo.

Sucks to hear, but it’s true. I’ve tried it haha. I won’t even reload for my buddy’s factory guns anymore, because they expect it to magically turn their gun into a tack driver. That just isn’t the case most of the time. The gun needs to shoot well to begin with. With a bunch of different powders and bullets. Then reloading kind of just helps eliminate the random flyer from oddball neck tension, or bring the ES down a decent ways from factory ammo. But the improvements generally aren’t huge. But they do exist.

 

[Hunter270Win]

Luck of the draw. More money doesn't always mean more accurate. I have a cheap ass Axis 308 that's a tack driver and a $1400 model 70 supergrade that stuggles for 3 shot 1.25 MOA groups.

What year is the Super Grade?

 

[ddowning]

-Probably every hunting rifle with match ammo could shoot a 1 moa group at 100yds, or at least most of them
-Every hunter can't, most of them can't

The biggest factor in the entire argument is the shooter. Most people cant shoot MOA, the guns can, people cant. You have an outdoor range and more variables come into play.

I would bet, if you had a sled that could hold a gun still, locked in the same place, shot by some type of mechanical means, you see most of these rifles can shoot MOA.

For whatever reason, sleds don't shoot very accurately. It is not uncommon for a good shooter to shoot a smaller group than the sled for the same set-up. Guys that really know how to set up a rail gun can shoot some pretty impressive groups, but in no way is that apples to apples with a hunting gun.

Something like a lead sled is a joke. I can consistently shoot groups 50% or more smaller than the lead sled with the same gun and ammo off a bipod and a rear bag.

 

[ddowning]

30rd group today with my first hand loads. Factory CTR 20” 6.5 creed. Glad I listened to @PNWGATOR and bought a tikka. I would say I am an average shooter at best so I’m sure a capable shooter can reduce that spread by a good bit. Either way I am very impressed with it!

View attachment 707181

That's pretty damn good! Not likely you can better that by much without Lapua brass and Berger or custom bullets (maybe a-tips). That's pretty good precision for a 30 round group.

My hunting guns rifle is about 14# and has custom everything. 30 round groups are still around that 1.2-1.3 moa (depending on barrel...some barrels will be right at or barely over 1 moa, but it is basically same-same for hunting purposes) with hornady bullets. I have not shot berger through it, but every time I have shot berger in a match gun they are a big improvement over hornady and sierra. I still prefer a plastic tip for performance on game.

 

[ddowning]

I also don’t think you can reload an inaccurate rifle into some precision instrument. Obviously, it will help with consistency. But honestly, not that much.

The baseline for the rifle kind of just is what it is. If it shoots 5 different factory loads over 1” for 5 shots groups. It’s probably not going to shoot 1/2” 5 shots groups just because it’s better loaded ammo.

Sucks to hear, but it’s true. I’ve tried it haha. I won’t even reload for my buddy’s factory guns anymore, because they expect it to magically turn their gun into a tack driver. That just isn’t the case most of the time. The gun needs to shoot well to begin with. With a bunch of different powders and bullets. Then reloading kind of just helps eliminate the random flyer from oddball neck tension, or bring the ES down a decent ways from factory ammo. But the improvements generally aren’t huge. But they do exist.

I've never tested anything statistically significant, but breaking in barrels for 200 rounds to get to speed up this plays out. A good barrel will shoot a 5 shot group of 3/8 to 1/2 for most groups with any random load. I normally get a rough zero for a couple 5 round groups and proceed to shooting 1 moa steel from positional for the rest of the 200 rounds. If it seems like the zero is moving, I just click the turret and keep going. I have never had anything shoot much worse than that and get acceptable precision out of it.

 

[Rolltide]

30rd group today with my first hand loads. Factory CTR 20” 6.5 creed. Glad I listened to @PNWGATOR and bought a tikka. I would say I am an average shooter at best so I’m sure a capable shooter can reduce that spread by a good bit. Either way I am very impressed with it!

View attachment 707181

That's a solid looking combo!

Which scope is this?

 

[Article 4]

ES is perfectly fine and not that unusual to use in regard to group size.

No. Extreme spread is the definition between the two farthest points along a graph, line, etc; or the difference between the largest and smallest data points in a set. It is used for group size as well as velocity.

True - I think you are both saying the same thing

If we focus on just ES as a data point, it is not actually a very good measure of actual dispersion but more a measure of the load consistency...better loads, less ES. Remember, we are measuring bullet speed and not rifle build quality although build quality of all components will always be a factor.

For 80-90% of shooters, ES and other range statistics will increase in size as we increase the number of shots. If we are focused on a 20-30 shot group, all data groups will continue to morph and change. For groupings that big, we are actually adding variation to the test...including shooter consistency which is not an accurate gauge of ES.

A good measure should give you useful information, which you can use to make good decisions. When you look at the extreme spread of a 5-shot group, that measurement is determined by only 2 out of the 5 shots. In other words, only 40% of the shots are considered in the measurement or in the group. Even worse, for a 10-shot group, a center-to-center measurement is only using information from 20% of the total shots.

Since the extreme spread, center-to-center measurement, is determined by only a small portion of the total shots available, it’s just sort of an indicator of precision.

 

[Mulyhuntr]

30rd group today with my first hand loads. Factory CTR 20” 6.5 creed. Glad I listened to @PNWGATOR and bought a tikka. I would say I am an average shooter at best so I’m sure a capable shooter can reduce that spread by a good bit. Either way I am very impressed with it!

View attachment 707181

My ctr loves that exact load as well. Nice shooting.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

There is almost a zero percent chance a factory tikka will out shoot a custom gun of the same chambering. And I’m not saying factory tikkas don’t shoot well. I recommend them to anyone that wants a factory gun. But there isn’t a chance in hell it’s going to outshoot a well built custom rifle with premium components. The factory tikka stock alone would eliminate that chance.

Not trying to be an ass but this just ain’t true at all. I’ve owned dozens of tikka and sako factory rifles that have outshot my custom built rifles.

 

[huntnful]

Not trying to be an ass but this just ain’t true at all. I’ve owned dozens of tikka and sako factory rifles that have outshot my custom built rifles.

I don’t take it that way at all! I was 100% wrong and uneducated on everything tikka had to offer. My own limited personal experience led me to only reference a few of their ultralight rifles that’d I’d shot quite a bit. And in my mind I really wasn’t making a direct comparison anyways. I was thinking Tikka T3X superlite vs. a premium custom build with well fitting stock, a little heavier weight, and good muzzle brake/suppressor.

6lb tikka vs. 6lb pound custom rifle. Probably couldn’t shoot the difference. And if you could, it would more than likely be small.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I don’t take it that way at all! I was 100% wrong and uneducated on everything tikka had to offer. My own limited personal experience led me to only reference a few of their ultralight rifles that’d I’d shot quite a bit. And in my mind I really wasn’t making a direct comparison anyways. I was thinking Tikka T3X superlite vs. a premium custom build with well fitting stock, a little heavier weight, and good muzzle brake/suppressor.

6lb tikka vs. 6lb pound custom rifle. Probably couldn’t shoot the difference. And if you could, it would more than likely be small.

The other side of the argument def exists. I cant count the number of guys who came out with a Tikka T3X lite chambered in .300 Win Mag or 7mm Mag and then complained that they weren’t shooting bug holes. Blaming the tool instead of the carpenter.

I agree that If they had the same chambering in a properly designed stock, muzzle brake or suppressor, etc, they would at least be setting themselves up to be a bit more successful.

What’s interesting is that in 95+% of cases they then jump onto one of my .260s, .243s, or .223s, and suddenly they can shoot a whole lot better. Then when given basic fundamental changes and shooting only a .223, after a day or two those “bug hole” groups start showing up.

 

[huntnful]

The other side of the argument def exists. I cant count the number of guys who came out with a Tikka T3X lite chambered in .300 Win Mag or 7mm Mag and then complained that they weren’t shooting bug holes. Blaming the tool instead of the carpenter.

I agree that If they had the same chambering in a properly designed stock, muzzle brake or suppressor, etc, they would at least be setting themselves up to be a bit more successful.

What’s interesting is that in 95+% of cases they then jump onto one of my .260s, .243s, or .223s, and suddenly they can shoot a whole lot better. Then when given basic fundamental changes and shooting only a .223, after a day or two those “bug hole” groups start showing up.

Yeah I was making an unfair comparison really. I’d only shot magnum chambered, lite weight tikkas. And also only shot heavier build customs, with muzzle brakes. In that case, I feel there is no real argument, because I’ve shot them side by side several times. But it’s certainly not apples to apples and mostly, if not totally, recoil related. And possibly a little bit of stock fitment I’m sure. The tikka ultralight stock is certainly not ideal for the best performance as far as group shooting goes and having to float your head consistently behind the optic repeatedly for large shot strings.

And absolutely agreed, groups tighten up when the cartridge size and caliber size starts dropping, in the same rifle platform.

 

[Jason Snyder]

The other side of the argument def exists. I cant count the number of guys who came out with a Tikka T3X lite chambered in .300 Win Mag or 7mm Mag and then complained that they weren’t shooting bug holes. Blaming the tool instead of the carpenter.

There was definitely a learning curve to shooting a light rifle in a 300 WM. I find with my Christensen Mesa, I have to be very cognizant of all the little form details every time to shoot it well.

 

[wind gypsy]

I’ve a small sample size of experience but I’m betting on a good aftermarket sporter tube over a factory t3 lite barrel every time. I’d expect to lose that bet occasionally but not most of the time.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

I’ve a small sample size of experience but I’m betting on a good aftermarket sporter tube over a factory t3 lite barrel every time. I’d expect to lose that bet occasionally but not most of the time.

My experience it is negligible honestly, with the edge in barrel life going to the Tikka and Sako barrels every time.

 

[RockAndSage]

There was definitely a learning curve to shooting a light rifle in a 300 WM. I find with my Christensen Mesa, I have to be very cognizant of all the little form details every time to shoot it well.

I can't remember who it was on here, but the other day they said something to the effect of "Increased recoil reveals deficiencies in shooting techniques." That really stuck with me, and reminds me of what you're saying you do with your Christensen Mesa.

 

[manitou1]

I can't be the only one wondering if its my rifle, or my expectations.

I am only explaining the rifles I have to highlight the progression of inexpensive to higher end, with seemingly no improvement in accuracy... Which is annoying.
I have a used Savage 110 Hunter in 22-250 with a middle of the road Vortex scope... tack driver with 1/4" capability and an average extreme spread (ES) of 1" with no wind. I also have my first big game rifle from 2009 which is a 1st gen Ruger American in 270 win with an inexpensive Leupold scope. Again, very accurate, maybe 3/4 MOA with average ES 1.2". Fast forward to 5 years ago and ordered a (fancy for me) Weatherby Mark 5 Back Country Ti, Leupold Mark 5 scope with Harris Bipod. Accurate rifle, but no more so than my 1st 2 "inexpensive" rifles. I am now testing factory loads for my newest rifle, a Tikka T3X RoughTech in 7mm RM with a Trijicon TenMile scope (Thanks Rokslide for data leading to that decision), SRS Break, Limbsaver recoil pad, MDT Bipod. As easy to shoot and spot as my 22-250. I have shot every factory load I can get my hands on for that rifle minus Norma Bondstrike, HSM Berger VLD and Underwood Nosler Accubond which should be here next week.

For testing, I shoot 5 shot groups, 4 targets (20 rounds), cooling between groups, and measure extreme spread. So far, best 5 shot group is 0.6", however the average on that load (162g ELDX) accross the 20 round test is 1.3". Side Note: I dont really want to hunt with ELDX from horror stories.
Next closesed is Barnes 160g TSX with best group 1.0" and 20 round ES 1.7".

I constantly see post/ media "1/4 MOA all day" bla bla bla. I could claim from my tests, that my T3X is a ".6 MOA rifle"... It can be, but its not. I am aware, I can get more accuracy if I hand load...
Questions:
1) What is your expecatation for an accurate rifle?
2) Are smaller calibers like the 22-250 inherently more accurate than say .284 bullet?
3) Anyone else watch numerous MOA challenges on youtube and feel vindicated against seemingly endless claims of "sub moa"?

.6" five shot groups is pretty darned good, as-well-as a 1.3" twenty shot groups with factory ammo. Really good for factory ammo actually.

FWIW: In shooting, extreme spread is generally referred as the max velocity variance between shot strings through a chronograph, at least for us reloaders.

To answer your question: I won't keep a hunting rifle that won't shoot .6" or less three shot groups every time I shoot them... but that is with handloads. Just my personal preference.

I have four factory rifles, two are $900 guns, one is a $450 gun and one is higher end... that all out shoot my $5K full custom. It is my belief that the custom's 25 oz lightweight carbon stock (and shape) and heavier barrel (balance) causes that anomoly.

 

[gulfofmexicoflyfishing]

That's a solid looking combo!

Which scope is this?

Primary Arms GLX 4-16x50