Ramping Up Logging

[cfdjay]

How much do you think this will realistically affect public land hunting? Genuine question I'm hoping someone close to or possibly in the industry can shed some light on.

Trump administration rolls back forest protections in bid to ramp up logging

President Donald Trump's administration has rolled back environmental protections around future logging projects on more than half of U.S. national forests under an emergency designation issued Friday that cites the dangers of wildfires.

apnews.com

 

[MTtrout]

Sustainable logging would help public land hunting. There are ways to log that are very beneficial to wildlife and the health of the ecosystem.

The sad part is I don’t think much will change with the amount of Federal lands being logged. The FS can’t even put in a damn gate without it being litigated let alone chopping down trees. As the article stated the Biden administration tried to increase logging too.

 

[TheTone]

Lots of mills have closed over the years and existing mills have increasingly specialized for only certain types of trees or sizes of tree

Loggers around me are already running at pretty much max capacity and aren’t hurting for jobs; so I’d don’t know where we are going to find more people to saw, run equipment or drive trucks

Lots of public lands that haven’t been getting logged really hard are a long ways from mills and thus will be really expensive sales when you figure in the amount of time it will take to get people and equipment to a job site plus the time/money to haul to a mill

 

[lager]

This will interesting because now there are not many sawmills left in Montana, and the ones that are still running are filled with inventory, and are not even buying logs till they get inventory down again. And the log prics are low. Might be different out west were they still have some paper mills.

 

[TaperPin]

If I recall someone on a financial channel said they got a glimpse of tariff exemptions and Canadian lumber was on the list. Low lumber prices might be like low oil prices and actually hold down American production increases.

Using tariff money to fund much needed thinning would be great. Foresters all over the west have thinning plans ready to go and just lack funding. Wildfire thinning isn’t the same as logging. Loggers lose money thinning small trees in nice looking ways in urban interface that Karen and Ken won’t flip out over, and most trees across the west aren’t all that big.

If the idea was just big fire breaks like a power line right of way, that’s cool, but that’s often not profitable logging if they are placed on the topography where they will actually work. Brush clearing will never pay for itself.

It’s a head scratcher why federal budgets for things like thinning crews aren’t worth funding, actually called fraud and waste with seasonal workers being told they don’t deserve a job.

 

[JustABritCrazy]

I’ve been in forestry since I was 19. 44 years of managing forests and timber sales. Almost all of it either state or private lands. Do hunt extensively on a national forest. Main issue is every time the feds try to do something they get sued by somebody. It takes years to work a timber sale thru their system between designing the sale to be ecologically and economically feasible, successfully defended in court and then bid, cut and retired. Typically takes the feds 4 to 6 years for a 300 acre sale on the forest I hunt on. State can do it in 4 to 6 months, private even less time. Now add in logging contractor capacity, mill capacity and the trees themselves. Different species worth more or less than others, diameters matter. Not many mills set up to turn out economy studs for Lowe’s across a good chunk of the country. Also not many set up to handle 5 to 7 foot diameter old growth. I don’t see a big increase happening even if the feds don’t get sued. To many other economic factors stacked against it and no attempt being made to change the infrastructure issues. Is it desperately needed yes no doubt.

 

[JoeDirt]

In Oregon here, a lot of state and BLM is selective logged already. This selective logging looks fantastic the following years, I think its a great option.

 

[Pony Soldier]

Good points. Trying to blend habitat management with logging is our problem since the 60s. Thousand acre clearcuts in the rocky mtn interior destroy habitat. A mosaic of select cuts or 10-15 acre clearcuts (dependant on timber types) could enhance habitat within 5-10 years. This has to be a long term management plan. Trying to pull this off in 4 year election blocks is closer to failure than success. Balancing cost to income in erratic management periods is an extreme problem especially with fixed long term costs like road construction. Then look at just the plan of permanent roads vs short term temporary access.

Things can be done but not in a short term plan. I'm watching the recovery of a 30,000 acre fire. It might be back to elk habitat 30-50 years after I am dead. Where are the elk? Along the boundaries of the fire. They are still developing travel patterns.

 

[mtwarden]

You could have a $hit ton of timber sales come up tomorrow, but (at least in Montana) almost all of the mills have been closed (many for decades!). You also have hundreds of folks that ran logging operations only to have lay everyone off and sell their equipment (much at a loss).

I'd love to see the timber industry come back in Montana, tariffs on government subsided Canadian lumber would be a positive step—the lack of which was the main reason logging went tits up in Montana (and I'm sure elsewhere). But it would take awhile to get things rolling again.

There was a bill (Fix our Forests) that recently passed the House with bipartisan support. It's aimed at preventing frivolous lawsuits on each and every timber sale that the Forest Service puts out for bid. It's now in the Senate's hand; this would be another positive step in reinvigorating the timber industry in the US.

As far as impacts to public hunting, I don't see much in the way of negatives. The old days of giant clearcuts have long been over.

 

[jballeau1689]

No expert on logging but my experience on public land logging. A piece of public i hunt in NY has had select cuts and clear cuts over the last 8 years or so. Once open woods with little to no deer activity has changed for the better. Huge increase in new growth creating cover and food. Im seeing larger groups of deer and it seems the land is holding more deer than it used to. The grouse population has exploded along with grey fox and bobcats which we never saw the first few years at camp. Logging has absolutely benefited our hunting for the better.

 

[Steve300xcw]

The old days of giant clearcuts have long been over.

Clear cuts are still a thing.

 

[RockAndSage]

The amount of lawfare some of you guys describe being waged in courts against even small-scale tracts of land to get logged is extremely interesting - I didn't realize it was so systemic, organized, and methodical. It's pretty damned disturbing.

 

[bigbassin]

No clue how it impacts animals out west, but hunting clearcuts for whitetails is a staple in the Southeast. Provides tons of bedding cover and food for several years after the cut, while providing them with a hard edge if they want to change habitat types.

Main talking point I hear as to why grouse used to be heavily populated in the North Georgia mountains but basically no longer exist is because of the lack of logging on the National Forest and wilderness areas. The entire Southeast’s decline in turkey and quail populations also get blamed often on the decline of logging.

 

[TheTone]

Clear cuts are still a thing.

Very much so!

One negative that is happening near me is loss of closed canopy forests my local whitetails use heavily in the winter.

Overall loss of security habitat is very much a thing. Where guys used to have to hunt them in the thick now they just sit around and blast them at long range in cuts as the animals move between shrinking pieces that provide security. Road building and the increased access also is a net loss for security and unless that road is completely torn out it’s virtually impossible to stop motorized access through gates, berms or fines

 

[idahodave]

Clear cuts are very, very rare on Federal lands.
SOME degree of clear-cuts aren’t a bad thing anyway. Gives a chance for new types of forage to populate.

If you think we need LESS logging on federal lands for overall habitat improvement, you’re simply wrong.

 

[Marble]

If they log like they used to here in CA, it will help the deer population. When they were clear cutting small sections, they also thinned other areas. They maintained the roads really well and cleaned other debris in the forest. It resulted in a lot of newer growth in the little plantations and the deer population here was nearly three times what it is now.

I hope they increase production. The problem currently is the price of lumber is fairly low.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[mtwarden]

Clear cuts are still a thing.

The old days of giant clearcuts have long been over.

Find a giant clear cut done on USFS in the last 30 years, keep looking.

 

[wytx]

This is just a fraction of the large clearcut done in the Snowies, they are doing plenty of logging over here and clearcuts are the preferred method of removing timber.

 

[TheTone]

Find a giant clear cut done on USFS in the last 30 years, keep looking.

What’s your definition of giant?

 

[mtwarden]

What’s your definition of giant?

100 acres +

Even in the late 70's the clear cuts (with numerous marked leave trees and snags that could be left) we were on were mostly in the 40-80 acre range. No squares or rectangles either, irregular shaped units—evidently to mimic small fires and obviously not as much of an eyesore.