Ramblings of a moron/guide..1.7 archery

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
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Montana
First question to ask yourself. Why do I want to hunt with a bow instead of a rifle. For the intimacy of it? Increase hunting time? How far am I willing to shoot. Personally, I do it for the intimacy which drives not only my shot distance but my entire approach to elk hunting with a bow and how I guide. I do not believe in shooting over 40 yards.
Here are a few observations/opinions that I believe will greatly increase the chance of harvesting. Meant for new folks just entering our wonderful hunting community, who are planning for a guided hunt or hunt with a buddy. I am sure there is much room for debate on some of this from others who are experienced and have differing experiences then I have. God willing, we can discuss these and at the end new folks will have a better idea of where they are and what needs to be done.

Shooting utensil of choice. Be very accurate with your brand of bow. From what I see heavy arrows are better than lite arrows. Broadhead, whether fixed or mechanical cutting diameter of at least 1 and 1/8" or bigger. Size of broadhead should be proportional to poundage of bow you choose. There are more philosophies on this then stars in sky. Should be able to hold your bow for a couple minutes and still be able to make accurate shot at 40 yards, from different positions with at least half the arrow penetrating.

Example: Guy draws bow, has to hold it while waiting for a bull to take a step or two. Bull is too close for shooter to step around an obstacle. Instead, he leans or squats a bit to get clear view of vitals. This can be a fairly regular occurrence.

Practicing: Keep in mind, when your time comes to make a shot adrenalin will be high. Fatigue and dehydration most likely will also be players. All 3 play into stability. Stability is big factor in archery shooting. Instead of practicing from stable proper form positions ALL the time. practice from unstable awkward positions until you become comfortable and accurate from those positions. Odds are good if you are prepared for them, you will not have to face them. Practice until your shooting process is automatic. 2 to 4 arrows on a consistent basis throughout the year, is far better then, no practice until they month before your hunt. If you become a 30 arrow a day shooter as your body fatigues a bit your grouping will worsen. It's not the bow. If you are shooting lights out on Tuesday and can't hit broadside of barn on Wednesday, it's not the bow. It is most often fundamentals. Take a break regroup, then walk yourself through every action from feet to head. First arrow of day is most important arrow. In field you will not have 30 shots to make a good one. Tune broadheads to match flight of field points. Wax bow string often. Shoot with a pack on.

Some things to always have 2 of in camp or vehicle: Release (that you have practiced with) is most often lost or forgotten item I see. Range finder battery. Boots. Socks. Allen wrench set. string wax. This list can be endless, try not to get lost in weeds.

Basic hunting tactics:
Elk never travels a straight line. Especially when bumped. They always bed watching their back trail. Keep this in mind when tracking, how you walk (noise in woods), can make all the difference. Walk on front half of foot as much as possible. Heel walking makes a sharper crunch on sticks and harder thud on ground. Avoid heel to toe (rolling foot from heel to toe) stalking like the plague. Stalking animals in woods is more about the kind of sound you are making then not making any sound. Try to wear clothing that is not overly baggy. Rubbing sound from inside of legs when you are walking will give you away. Predators try to be completely silent. Only one thing will scare an ungulate more than hearing something sneaking through the woods; that is human scent. Keeping the wind is a critical thing. Wind, however, does not have to be completely perfect. Where you are in relation to elk and terrain will dictate ideal wind. For instance, if you are on same contour as elk a crosswind is far better than dead downwind. Since elk prefer high ground over wind you can predict with almost certainty the bulls' route to caller. Especially if you can set up below an overlooking bench. Shooter sets up above bench, caller sets up slightly below bench and further around contour. In bulls mind he gets sight of area then if he wants more investigation, he climbs keeping the high ground and wind. Except while he is contemplating, the shooter just stuck him at 30 yards (or closer) with a downhill shot. If a bull is talking then goes silent, after a few minutes you find yourself wondering if he is gone or hung up, be very patient. Sometimes over an hour. Critical shooter Does not move. Caller has most critical job. Too much to explain here.

Calling bull to 100 yards is easy. Things get more complicated once a bull gets into that 60-yard range. Call it 50 to 70 yards which is where most sets go wrong. Once a bull breaks the 60-yard barrier he is most likely coming on a string.

How to setup for shooter and caller. Pick place for shooter where elk has to walk through to see caller (shooter in crosswind if possible). Caller should be out of sight line. I.E. over a knob behind dense bushes, around a corner. I Find at least 100-200 yards from caller to shooter to be ideal. Gives caller more room to move around if needed to swing the bull. Especially if trying to pull a bull downhill. When blind calling keep shooter close 10-20 yards.

When with an actual guide, trust the guide. Every set will not go according to plan. Discuss immediately what happen. Not all guides are created equal. Even old farts always have something to learn. Discussion is best learning process for future sets. Callers most often can't see what is going on. Thier decisions are based off sounds. Letting the caller know what the bull was doing. Did he run in and freeze? Was his head high or low? Did he peak over a knob, stop short or stop on top of knob? 2 guys with little experience, draw it out in dirt. Visualizing the scenario will help learn from it. Often times a bulls' voice and actions don't match up. He may sound extremely aggressive with very timid actions. Sometimes he can be very aggressive and almost dead silent. both can line up and neither can line up. Which all will help explain the psychology and sociology in your neck of woods at that time. Both can vary from day to day.

Learn all you can about the biology of elk. A better understanding of their psychology and sociology will make it far easier to predict behavior and movements. Also help understand what calls to use, why and in what order. The Willy Nilly stuff works a few days out of the year. From September to November elk are very callable. However, the type and sequence will be far different in September then November.

The standoff: 2 or more bulls are responsive. Then all decide they want in on action. By 5th or 10th of September the bulls in that area already know their pecking order. You do not know by the sound of their voice what pecking order is, or who is more worn down. On any given day the biggest bull may not be the toughest bull. If multiple bulls start for you and then hang up, be very patient. Over the course of the next 2 to 3 hours one of them will come sneaking in. The bulls will work that out and you will not be able to tell which it is (usually). Critical that shooters move to within 60ish yards of caller and be very still/vigilant. Caller has to be on his game. calling should be sporadic and only cow sounds. Caller should be mostly silent and moving in a 40-yard square. Trying to sound like browsing cows. Only calls made should be of cow talking to another cow or her baby. I find cow talking to calf best for increasing bull curiosity. Hopefully shooter can set in such a way that any bull who comes in has to come through around or over an obstacle to see caller. keep in mind that bulls know the terrain better. If one bull has to come through open terrain and one bull can get close with cover, then bull with best cover is most likely who will finally come take a look. Terrain each bull has to cover will play a big role in which one comes in.
Bulls love traveling on edges. Whether its benches, meadows, ridges they like the edges. Top third of mountains for bedding especially in predator country. Meadows make for great sets, since a bull will almost always come around one end or the other. If you can get a meadow with a ridge on one side that peters out at bottom of meadow. Almost bet money the bull is coming across the bottom of meadow and around corner of ridge (especially if ridge is rocky) and caller sets up low. Whether the bull comes across top edge or bottom edge can be determined by where the caller sets up. That should be determined by which route gives the bull easiest avenue to approach and see over or around the ridge. For instance, if meadow drops off to a deep ravine on bottom, then bull will not be very willing to come through a ravine, he will want you to come to him.

Frontal shots are quickest most deadly shot you can make out to 25 yards at max. I find it to be far more effective to take the frontal at 20 yards then to shot in ribs at 60 or beyond. I'll leave it at that.

Lastly....

Be in good shape. Not just decent....Good shape. On a guided archery elk hunt expect to cover 7 miles a day round trip on foot with very little flat traveling. Most of this is going to be mental shape. Even guys in great shape struggle. Determination is a critical factor. The more you prepare the more determination you will have.
 

P Carter

WKR
Joined
Nov 4, 2016
Messages
577
Location
Idaho
Great advice! Tricky question: what’s your experience of shooting versus killing. I read a book by Mike Lapinksy and he said something about talking to a camp, 4-6 people had shot but only 1 recovered.

I did my first guided archery hunt last year, came back with a bull, likely to do another last year as it’s the best way to hunt with my 70 year old father.
 
OP
Deadfall

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
1,526
Location
Montana
Great advice! Tricky question: what’s your experience of shooting versus killing. I read a book by Mike Lapinksy and he said something about talking to a camp, 4-6 people had shot but only 1 recovered.

I did my first guided archery hunt last year, came back with a bull, likely to do another last year as it’s the best way to hunt with my 70 year old father.
Usually preparation is the difference maker.
Preparation requires energy/investment. There are exceptions.

The more time someone spends investing the less likely they are to make bad decisions
 
OP
Deadfall

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Montana
Very little about archery hunting is fast. Patience and willingness to not quit. I would much rather guide a old guy who is methodical then a young guy that wants to run and take 100 yard shots.
 

packer58

WKR
Joined
May 28, 2013
Messages
993
Very little about archery hunting is fast. Patience and willingness to not quit. I would much rather guide a old guy who is methodical then a young guy that wants to run and take 100 yard shots.
I guide deer not elk, and totally agree with your statement .......
 

mnhoundman

Lil-Rokslider
Joined
Sep 19, 2013
Messages
194
Just curious, what state do you guide in? Sorry if I missed it somewhere.
 
Joined
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Colorado
Tradbow hunter here keeping shots under 20 - I love getting real close on the stalk. Have you guided tradbow hunters before and if so then does your frontal shot experience hold up there? I tend to shoot broadside and I kill deer (and recover them). I have never attempted a frontal shot though.
Bows I shoot are around 50pds at my draw length, arrows are heavy with 125 grain Zwickey heads. When shooting carbon rather than wood arrows I use a 50 grain insert as well up front as I like a front heavy arrow. Bows I own I have shot for decades so I am very comfortable with all of them (2 recurves & 2 longbows - one recurve is 60 pds but I am comfy with that one too).
 
OP
Deadfall

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
1,526
Location
Montana
I grew up shooting traditional. I do guide traditional guys once in awhile.

As for the frontal with traditional, if your proficient. Like 12 ring accurate at 10 or 15, wouldn't hesitate. Would be wary over 15 though.
The frontal is soft tissue. Even if you skin the neck bone, you broadhead on Traditional is big enough you will cut artery.

When our and about hunting for myself, probably 90 percent or more of my shots are frontal. Includes my traditional days.

Have never had a traditional guy shoot frontal that I've guided.
 
Joined
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Messages
329
Location
Colorado
Is there a blood trail typically? I had to track one mule deer without any bloodtrail about 2 seasons ago but I got lucky in that I shot him in a draw so I figured he'd just run downhill which turned out to be correct (it was a steep downhill draw). I followed the draw down carefully scanning both sides until I found him piled up with his antlers against a tree keeping his body from sliding down farther. But that was a scary trail as I was very worried about finding the deer. Curiously enough it was a pass through heart shot but no blood to be found shortly after the shot area which was pretty weird. But then I had that draw working in my favor for finding him so it worked out plus I saw him run down it right after the shot.
 
OP
Deadfall

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
1,526
Location
Montana
Is there a blood trail typically? I had to track one mule deer without any bloodtrail about 2 seasons ago but I got lucky in that I shot him in a draw so I figured he'd just run downhill which turned out to be correct (it was a steep downhill draw). I followed the draw down carefully scanning both sides until I found him piled up with his antlers against a tree keeping his body from sliding down farther. But that was a scary trail as I was very worried about finding the deer. Curiously enough it was a pass through heart shot but no blood to be found shortly after the shot area which was pretty weird. But then I had that draw working in my favor for finding him so it worked out plus I saw him run down it right after the shot.
Yes there is. Plus I've never seen one go more then 100 yards usually less. The blood pumps out fast.

Most guys ate scared of it because of the target size not being as big as heart and lung target.

Practice small and stay within yourself. The animal don't go anywhere
 
Joined
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Messages
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Colorado
Yes there is. Plus I've never seen one go more then 100 yards usually less. The blood pumps out fast.

Most guys ate scared of it because of the target size not being as big as heart and lung target.

Practice small and stay within yourself. The animal don't go anywhere
Thank you!
 
OP
Deadfall

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Montana
Curious, what have you seen for recovery rates when your clients release an arrow?
Tricky answer.

When they hit it's real close to 100 percent recovery. Some years we loose one or two. Some years we don't loose any.

Probably 85 to 95 percent of shots fired are hits.

After a guy has been on a elk hunt they start understanding the game and what thier part is. IE. When to adjust and when not to.

New guys it usually takes 4 to 6 encounters before they get a shot. Usually they miss a couple times.

Another factor is distance.
I implore that guys not shoot over 40. I hammer on this point several times a day.

Only losses on recovery I've seen are shots over 40 yards.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Tricky answer.

When they hit it's real close to 100 percent recovery. Some years we loose one or two. Some years we don't loose any.

Probably 85 to 95 percent of shots fired are hits.

After a guy has been on a elk hunt they start understanding the game and what thier part is. IE. When to adjust and when not to.

New guys it usually takes 4 to 6 encounters before they get a shot. Usually they miss a couple times.

Another factor is distance.
I implore that guys not shoot over 40. I hammer on this point several times a day.

Only losses on recovery I've seen are shots over 40 yards.

Interesting. Surprises me that guys who completely miss something as big as an elk a couple times inside 40 yards don’t also lose some.

I did a guided archery elk hunt this year, my guide seemed surprised when I said I’d like to keep shots to 50 or less.
 
OP
Deadfall

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
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Messages
1,526
Location
Montana
Interesting. Surprises me that guys who completely miss something as big as an elk a couple times inside 40 yards don’t also lose some.

I did a guided archery elk hunt this year, my guide seemed surprised when I said I’d like to keep shots to 50 or less.
Does seem counterintuitive. Inside 40 it's either kill or miss.

Then too, a shot that is 2 inches off at 20 yards, is a foot or more off at 60. Same as tuning a bow. Broadhead may initially only be off a very small bit at 20. Then at 40 or further it will barely hit the target if not properly tuned.

Looking at angles. Take a piece of plywood and draw a 10 degree angle the length of a 8 foot sheet, pretend thats your arrow flight on a shot.. Then beside that draw a line at 8 degrees. 2 degrees doesn't seem like much. However, The further away from starting piont arrow gets, the more space will be between lines.

Also, the chance of hitting a branch/obstruction at 20 yards is half the chance it is at 40. A third the chance at 60.

I imagine he was surprised. Almost everyone shows up saying the are good at 60 or further.

60 to 100 yards is not the complicated part. That's the fringe of a bulls comfort zone. It's not terribly difficult to get in that 60 yard mark. Point being, good on you for having limits
 
OP
Deadfall

Deadfall

WKR
Joined
Oct 18, 2019
Messages
1,526
Location
Montana
Interesting. Surprises me that guys who completely miss something as big as an elk a couple times inside 40 yards don’t also lose some.

I did a guided archery elk hunt this year, my guide seemed surprised when I said I’d like to keep shots to 50 or less.
I'm curious about the guides reaction? Was he enthusiastic about your limit, or more eye roll type attitude?
 
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