Questions for Form and other "small caliber for big game" folks

[DagOtto]

Hi Guys,

I am new to the "small caliber for big game" discussion and since listening to the Form interviews that the Exo Mountain Gear guys posted on their podcast a few months ago I've been drinking out of a fire hose. Thanks to everyone (and especially to Form, The Exo guys and the Shoot2Hunt guys.) I will say that I have not fully drunk the cool-aid as I'm a skeptic by nature. But so much of what Form argues makes so much damn sense!

Three questions for Form or others-- I've got a billion, but these three are for starters:

Question 1- So Form's sound logic and massive field experience have convinced me to pretty much stop cleaning my guns. But what do you recommend when faced with dirt and grime and moisture. Assume stainless steel or carbon barrel, fiberglass stock and nitrited action. This year my first hunt was extremely dusty with dust getting into every part of the rifle. And my second hunt was super wet with constant rain.

Do you just wipe down outside of rifle, magazine, inside of action and call it good or do you run a quick patch with Hoppes or Kroil down the barrel? Do you ever disassemble and clean scope mounts, firing pin assembly or stock/rifle bedding area?

Question 2- What experience do you have with soft/ frangible, small-caliber bullets hitting elk / moose from a difficult angle (severe quartering.) I looked through the .223/.243 necropsy threads but they are so massive and I didn't see any of these types of impacts. According to other experts this is one of the reasons one should consider using larger calibers on these larger game. (often they refer to this as "forgiveness.") Is that bogus? Does the difference in penetration depth from larger calibers and/or tougher bullets give one more latitude to take less than ideal shots?

Question 3- Form has said that there is a dramatic difference in the average shooter's field conditions hit rate when recoil drops below around 6 foot pounds of energy. If you assume an 8.5-9 pound gun (with scope, ammo, sling and suppressor) then this range of recoil appears to begin right around a .243 Winchester and smaller. From field experience does this seem to be correct? The idea of a 6 CM, 6.5 CM, or 6.5 PRC all sound sexier and slightly more punchy than the lowly .243 win. BUT, I really am interested in reducing the "I suck" portion of the process, so I'm prepared to go .243 Win.,, but just wanted to check what real world observations tell us versus what I found using an online calculator.

Thanks

 

[Formidilosus]

Three questions for Form or others-- I've got a billion, but these three are for starters:

Question 1- So Form's sound logic and massive field experience have convinced me to pretty much stop cleaning my guns. But what do you recommend when faced with dirt and grime and moisture. Assume stainless steel or carbon barrel, fiberglass stock and nitrited action. This year my first hunt was extremely dusty with dust getting into every part of the rifle. And my second hunt was super wet with constant rain.

Do you just wipe down outside of rifle, magazine, inside of action and call it good or do you run a quick patch with Hoppes or Kroil down the barrel? Do you ever disassemble and clean scope mounts, firing pin assembly or stock/rifle bedding area?

Tape the muzzles when in the field. No, I/we do not clean the barrels. Wipe the bolt down, spray brake cleaner and flush the action is needed, relube the bolt and action, move on with life.

No, never disassemble just to check. Degrease, thread lock and torque. Then leave it alone.

Question 2- What experience do you have with soft/ frangible, small-caliber bullets hitting elk / moose from a difficult angle (severe quartering.) I looked through the .223/.243 necropsy threads but they are so massive and I didn't see any of these types of impacts. According to other experts this is one of the reasons one should consider using larger calibers on these larger game. (often they refer to this as "forgiveness.") Is that bogus? Does the difference in penetration depth from larger calibers and/or tougher bullets give one more latitude to take less than ideal shots?

There is a LOT of elk, moose, bear, deer, mountain goats, etc., shot in every conceivable position and impact location. Read the every page of the thread from the beginning- it is worth it.

Question 3- Form has said that there is a dramatic difference in the average shooter's field conditions hit rate when recoil drops below around 6 foot pounds of energy. If you assume an 8.5-9 pound gun (with scope, ammo, sling and suppressor) then this range of recoil appears to begin right around a .243 Winchester and smaller. From field experience does this seem to be correct? The idea of a 6 CM, 6.5 CM, or 6.5 PRC all sound sexier and slightly more punchy than the lowly .243 win. BUT, I really am interested in reducing the "I suck" portion of the process, so I'm prepared to go .243 Win.,, but just wanted to check what real world observations tell us versus what I found using an online calculator.

Thanks

The 243 win is functional identical to the 6cm. The simple answer is the less recoil the better.

 

[NSI]

Take the muzzles when in the field. No, I/we do not clean the barrels. Wipe the bolt down, spray brake cleaner and flush the action is needed, relube the bolt and action, move on with life.

No, never disassemble just to check. Degrease, thread lock and torque. Then leave it alone.






There is a LOT of elk, moose, bear, deer, mountain goats, etc., shot in every conceivable position and impact location. Read the every page of the thread from the beginning- it is worth it.







The 243 win is functional identical to the 6cm. The simple answer is the less recoil the better.

Trying to figure out if I want to spend the $850 to re-barrel a tikka to 6cm. Assuming only factory ammo, have you got a sense of what the maximum engagement distance is vs a .243, both at 18”?

-J

 

[AZ_Hunter]

Trying to figure out if I want to spend the $850 to re-barrel a tikka to 6cm. Assuming only factory ammo, have you got a sense of what the maximum engagement distance is vs a .243, both at 18”?

-J

You could have the tikka 243 w/8 twist re-chambered to 6cm.

 

[NSI]

You could have the tikka 243 w/8 twist re-chambered to 6cm.

Still not cheap. Trying to figure out how many yards and tenths of wind I’m buying.

-J

 

[Tmac]

Relative to your question 3, get something with a short threaded barrel and add a suppressor. From a suppressed 223 there is barely any felt recoil, from my 6 ARC and 6.5 Grendel there is really not much either. If you end up with a 243 and suppress it, the felt recoil should be minimal.

 

[Jsmalls273]

Thank ks for asking these questions! I just picked up my first Tikka in 243 and though it does not have the 8 twist, I'm still excited for it. Now my big problem is do I go ahead and sell my .270 so that I can afford to put an a goodTikka. And couple other things on my tikka.

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[NSI]

Thank ks for asking these questions! I just picked up my first Tikka in 243 and though it does not have the 8 twist, I'm still excited for it. Now my big problem is do I go ahead and sell my .270 so that I can afford to put an a goodTikka. And couple other things on my tikka.

Sent from my SM-S921U using Tapatalk

Be deadly with one gun. And put a reliable scope on that gun.

-J

 

[Jsmalls273]

Be deadly with one gun. And put a reliable scope on that gun.

-J

Kinda what I'm thinking. It's a Weatherby vanguard high country and though I've always liked the 270, I just never really fell in love with the rifle. Plus I have a
M70 300wm for a big rifle if ever needed.

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[Formidilosus]

Trying to figure out if I want to spend the $850 to re-barrel a tikka to 6cm. Assuming only factory ammo, have you got a sense of what the maximum engagement distance is vs a .243, both at 18”?

-J

If you mean general large large company factory ammo, the best 243 options are going to have a terminal al range of 500 to 600 yards. The best 6cm options will be 600+.

 

[pacoalcracker]

Who said an 8 twist in a 24 caliber was absolutely necessary? Shoot it as-is and see how well it does first. My 243 shoots very well with 105gr bullets. As Form stated, the 243 and 6CM are quite similar in performance. If you want to sell that 270 use the cash from the sale to purchase a quality scope and mounts.

 

[Helislacker]

If you mean general large large company factory ammo, the best 243 options are going to have a terminal al range of 500 to 600 yards. The best 6cm options will be 600+.

What’s the top end killing distance for say a 20” 6cm shooting factory ELD-M’s in the hands of a shooter shooting 1500 rounds + per year in mountain terrain? 800yds or so in most western states/provinces? Is there any real advantage going with 6.5 PRC with 140’s/143’s over the 6cm shooting 108’s if you’re shooting factory ammo primarily?

 

[Steve300xcw]

What’s the top end killing distance for say a 20” 6cm shooting factory ELD-M’s in the hands of a shooter shooting 1500 rounds + per year in mountain terrain? 800yds or so in most western states/provinces?

farther than most guys are capable of

 

[DagOtto]

Relative to your question 3, get something with a short threaded barrel and add a suppressor. From a suppressed 223 there is barely any felt recoil, from my 6 ARC and 6.5 Grendel there is really not much either. If you end up with a 243 and suppress it, the felt recoil should be minimal.

Thanks, yes I run suppressors on my rifles now as I've found that I'm at least as affected by the loud percussion than the recoil.

One follow-up. Form, you say to tape the muzzle when in the field. Do you cover all of the holes on the suppressor? My Nomad has the center bore-hole, but also a series of smaller holes around the end cap.

Same question for a muzzle brake, do you cover the entire thing with electrical tape?

Thanks,

 

[Steve300xcw]

If you are trying to keep water and debris out of the barrel. Covering all the holes at the muzzle makes sense

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

What’s the top end killing distance for say a 20” 6cm shooting factory ELD-M’s in the hands of a shooter shooting 1500 rounds + per year in mountain terrain? 800yds or so in most western states/provinces? Is there any real advantage going with 6.5 PRC with 140’s/143’s over the 6cm shooting 108’s if you’re shooting factory ammo primarily?

My 20" 6 Creedmoor shooting 108 ELDM factory ammo, at mid DA is an 800ish yard gun.

Something to think about, instead of going up to 6.5... My 19" 22 Creedmoor shooting 80 ELDX factory ammo, at mid DA, is a 800ish yard gun.

 

[MuleyFever]

My 20" 6CM hits about 1800 FPS at 825 yards using factory 108 ELD-M. That is with an Ultra 7 on it and at an elevation of 5500ft.

 

[Tmac]

Thanks, yes I run suppressors on my rifles now as I've found that I'm at least as affected by the loud percussion than the recoil.

One follow-up. Form, you say to tape the muzzle when in the field. Do you cover all of the holes on the suppressor? My Nomad has the center bore-hole, but also a series of smaller holes around the end cap.

Same question for a muzzle brake, do you cover the entire thing with electrical tape?

Thanks,

Re: the Nomad. You could get a new end cap if it’s a big concern. The Nomad I’ve seen, and I’m no expert, the holes around the edge were for a tool, they did not go past the thread on the end cap. Might be worth a look.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Re: the Nomad. You could get a new end cap if it’s a big concern. The Nomad I’ve seen, and I’m no expert, the holes around the edge were for a tool, they did not go past the thread on the end cap. Might be worth a look.

Yep, that is how the end cap on the Nomad is. You can just put a piece of electrical tape over the main hole or just use these:

Trojan™ ENZ™ Non-Lubricated Condoms | Classic Condoms | Trojan™

Trojan™ ENZ™ condoms without lubricant allows you to add your own lube or leave it off. The reservoir end offers extra protection.

www.trojanbrands.com

 

[TaperPin]

…or carbon barrel…

You have to accept carbon barrels will pit without cleaning - that fact of life hasn’t changed since Lewis and Clark were still in diapers.

I personally don’t care if people clean or not - it makes no sense since cleaning only takes a few minutes, but grown adults can do what they want. It’s talked about like nothing bad will happen, but barrels rust, metal below stock lines rust, bolts rust, triggers rust. It all works fine until it doesn’t. Avoiding basic maintenance because it takes too long is right up there with making a bed, wearing clean underwear, and washing the car.