Questioning the "gold Standard Drop Test" and the conclusions of "This scope brand does/doesn't hold zero"

[Wrench]

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I have a 3x9 swfa that came out of a scabbard on my motorcycle at a pace fast enough to mash the crown of the rifle and beat the ever loving hell out of the gun. I had to do some work to the rifle....but the scope lived.

 

[ztc92]

That’s another fair assessment of all of this - the argument can be made that most people can’t shoot well enough to ever put the difference of a reliable to scope to use.

Not directed at you personally, but I think this way of thinking is very detrimental, especially to new or inexperienced shooters and want to call that out.

I grew up hunting and shooting but always struggled to hit my target or shoot good groups with a scoped rifle. Interestingly, I always shot pretty well with iron sights when hunting small game with .22’s but never connected the dots that my scoped rifle systems just weren’t reliable and/or had a wandering zero. Looking back, it may have been the scope, the mount or even the stock touching the barrel, I’ll never know. Sadly, at a young age I learned I was just a “bad shot”, was labeled as “trigger happy” and told I just “pulled that shot” or “got buck fever”.

When I met Form a few years back he offered to take me shooting and teach me a bit. I started by shooting my own hunting rifle (a savage 110 topped with a Zeiss and no suppressor) and shot a 4 inch 5-shot group at 100 yards, which was pretty normal for me.

I switched to his Tikka 223 with a SWFA and a suppressor and proceeded to put 10 shots into a 2 inch group. I couldn’t believe my eyes. There was no way a “bad shot” like me could shoot such good groups.

He then set me up on a heavy 308 and I proceeded to go 5 for 5 on a rock at like 750 yards. At that time, hitting a target at 300 yards felt impossible and I usually missed anything over 200 yards when I tried. To hit something so easily at 750 yards was truly mind blowing.

Within a week I had my own tikka 223 topped with proper rings and a SWFA that Form was kind enough to borrow me. Amazingly, ever since I set that rifle up and practiced with a reliable system, my 10-shot groups are rarely larger than 2” and all my episodes of being “trigger happy”, “pulling shots” and experiencing “buck fever” have magically disappeared.

I think we’re all capable of shooting the difference of a reliable system vs an unreliable one, but we have to get rid of all the excuses we give ourselves for missing in order to appreciate the difference.

 

[KyleR1985]

Not directed at you personally, but I think this way of thinking is very detrimental, especially to new or inexperienced shooters and want to call that out.

I grew up hunting and shooting but always struggled to hit my target or shoot good groups with a scoped rifle. Interestingly, I always shot pretty well with iron sights when hunting small game with .22’s but never connected the dots that my scoped rifle systems just weren’t reliable and/or had a wandering zero. Looking back, it may have been the scope, the mount or even the stock touching the barrel, I’ll never know. Sadly, at a young age I learned I was just a “bad shot”, was labeled as “trigger happy” and told I just “pulled that shot” or “got buck fever”.

When I met Form a few years back he offered to take me shooting and teach me a bit. I started by shooting my own hunting rifle (a savage 110 topped with a Zeiss and no suppressor) and shot a 4 inch 5-shot group at 100 yards, which was pretty normal for me.

I switched to his Tikka 223 with a SWFA and a suppressor and proceeded to put 10 shots into a 2 inch group. I couldn’t believe my eyes. There was no way a “bad shot” like me could shoot such good groups.

He then set me up on a heavy 308 and I proceeded to go 5 for 5 on a rock at like 750 yards. At that time, hitting a target at 300 yards felt impossible and I usually missed anything over 200 yards when I tried. To hit something so easily at 750 yards was truly mind blowing.

Within a week I had my own tikka 223 topped with proper rings and a SWFA that Form was kind enough to borrow me. Amazingly, ever since I set that rifle up and practiced with a reliable system, my 10-shot groups are rarely larger than 2” and all my episodes of being “trigger happy”, “pulling shots” and experiencing “buck fever” have magically disappeared.

I think we’re all capable of shooting the difference of a reliable system vs an unreliable one, but we have to get rid of all the excuses we give ourselves for missing in order to appreciate the difference.

You’ll get zero resistance here from me. I wasn’t making that argument. I don’t buy it. But it could be made.

Shooting a low recoiling, properly assembled and fitted rifle with a scope that holds zero has actually made me more interested in shooting than I’ve ever been in my life. The uncertainty and lack of success made it completely uninteresting. I’ve shot more in the last 2 years than I have in the 20 years prior.

I agree that there is both a technical and cultural component to this. I’m grateful for both.

 

[Macintosh]

I think this way of thinking is very detrimental, especially to new or inexperienced shooters and want to call that out.

Agree 100%. Reliably positive feedback for “doing it right”, and reliably negative feedback for “doing it wrong” is fundamental to learning, regardless of whether one is beginner, intermediate or expert. Also, in the cases I have experienced, these scopes when they fail arent off by a tenth or two, they either simply dont adjust properly, or are off by multiple inches at 100 yards. Enough that beginners can easily shoot the difference from a bench or prone. Yeah, positions hide that, but thats precisely why even expert shooters dont generally zero from unstable positions.

 

[Chris in TN]

Leupold scopes as a group have mostly failed the drop test.

That’s part of the problem. Leupold is an American icon and institution. The drop tests gore our collective sacred cow. You can hear the faithful howl about it in this thread.
I’ve got very old Leupolds. I mean 20 to 30 years old. Guess what? One slid over and fell sideways this winter. First shot afterward was low. Then returned to zero for subsequent shots. Classic ‘spring bounce’ failure that illustrates a design weakness. But the faithful will explain it away. I’m still using it. Likely will for a long time to come, but it ain’t going elk hunting.

 

[Kyguy]

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Let's be clear about this post.. when you read the story, the scope DID NOT RETAIN ZERO. The scope remained fully functional, which is a great testament to Trijicon. But it had to be re-zeroed. You can find videos all over the place of people beating the ever loving shit out of Arken and the scope remains functional and gets re-zeroed. There's also a couple of videos out of South Africa with people doing the same thing with the vortex Viper 6.5-20, beating the hell out of it, and the scope remains functional, even shooting it out of a block of ice with a shotgun and throwing it out the window of a truck going 35 kph, and it remains functional.

 

[Huntin Fool]

That’s part of the problem. Leupold is an American icon and institution. The drop tests gore our collective sacred cow. You can hear the faithful howl about it in this thread.
I’ve got very old Leupolds. I mean 20 to 30 years old. Guess what? One slid over and fell sideways this winter. First shot afterward was low. Then returned to zero for subsequent shots. Classic ‘spring bounce’ failure that illustrates a design weakness. But the faithful will explain it away. I’m still using it. Likely will for a long time to come, but it ain’t going elk hunting.

Probably pulled the first shot….

 

[JGRaider]

Let's be clear about this post.. when you read the story, the scope DID NOT RETAIN ZERO. The scope remained fully functional, which is a great testament to Trijicon. But it had to be re-zeroed. You can find videos all over the place of people beating the ever loving shit out of Arken and the scope remains functional and gets re-zeroed. There's also a couple of videos out of South Africa with people doing the same thing with the vortex Viper 6.5-20, beating the hell out of it, and the scope remains functional, even shooting it out of a block of ice with a shotgun and throwing it out the window of a truck going 35 kph, and it remains functional.

Agree. Wondering if Tim Herald is getting paid by Trijicon to use their stuff..........

 

[hibernation]

This thread has been a wild ride. Only thing I'll add is that people really love to conflate "science" with "high-tech".

If someone is conducting an experiment, observing the results, and weighing their theories against the objective evidence, that's science. Just because it doesn't take place in a lab with state-of-the-art equipment, does not make it unscientific.

I would argue that in many cases, people get so focused on making something high-tech, they lose track of the actual question they're trying to answer. Simpler procedures are often better.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Just a FNG here, but reading through this critique (and a multitude of other threads and posts critiquing the drop test) shows a massive lack of understanding in the intention, process and results entirely.

I don't want, nor care, to know which scope passes or fails when dropped from the exact same height, on the exact same surface, at the exact same degree, and how far my subsequent shot is going to be off. Thats literally the opposite of what I want to know. Therein lies the beauty of this test.

When I'm hunting and my gun falls from the tree I leaned it on, I want to know that my next shot is going to hit where I want it to. As I'm driving from drainage to drainage, or across state lines to different destination hunts, I dont want to have to search for a place to verify my gun is still zeroed before loading up my pack in the morning. To gain that confidence beforehand, I use a very basic and repeatable test before that situation ever happens. I drop it on the ground and drive around the mountains with it uncased and verify by shooting, well before that hunt. Its simple. I may be wrong but is that not the entire point of the drop test.

I, for one, dont want a scientific, repeatable test. I want some variables because I am using the scope in a variety of situations. And I can do the test myself.

Would appreciate a Daniel defense/Aimpoint style test.
Drop the ****** on some gravel roads,than drag it,than rip it up and down some washboards in a side by side.Strap to loaded pack and fall on it a few times and lastly let it fall from side of pack simulating a gun bearier strap coming loose.
With all the testing and how ruff some of these guns look that shouldn’t be to much to ask.
So it in real time.
Not sure why that hasn’t been shown yet,it would definitely help sale.

 

[KHNC]

“I'm a surgeon... what did you expect?”

Exactly. Over n out.

What is your profession? Landscaper? Equipment operator? Engineer? Ditch digger? Weed grower?

 

[JGRaider]

Would appreciate a Daniel defense/Aimpoint style test.
Drop the ****** on some gravel roads,than drag it,than rip it up and down some washboards in a side by side.Strap to loaded pack and fall on it a few times and lastly let it fall from side of pack simulating a gun bearier strap coming loose.
With all the testing and how ruff some of these guns look that shouldn’t be to much to ask.
So it in real time.
Not sure why that hasn’t been shown yet,it would definitely help sale.

Go to Youtube. Arken already did a lot of that.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

Not with the new scope we all all waiting on!

 

[Lionheart]

What is your profession? Landscaper? Equipment operator? Engineer? Ditch digger? Weed grower?

Sorry. You don’t need to know lol. You work for Big Pharma?

 

[KHNC]

Sorry. You don’t need to know lol. You work for Big Pharma?

No, im a politician, and i work for i rs part time.

 

[Lionheart]

No, im a politician, and i work for i rs part time.

Yea, I’m a lobbyist and a covert CIA operative in my spare time…

 

[nm.otter]

I’m a lobbyist and a covert CIA operative

At first glance, those seem like incompatible occupations.
On second thought, perhaps not...

 

[Nutkin13]

All the negative opinions of the testing are irrelevant unless they plan on doing their own testing

 

[Macintosh]

All the negative opinions of the testing are irrelevant unless they plan on PUBLISHING their own testing

FIXED IT.

Perfect is the enemy of good, and all that.

 

[Bobby Bailey]

“I'm a surgeon... what did you expect?”

Exactly. Over n out.

You said you were "out" in a eariler post.
You judge him for being a doctor.
So...... should you be judged for not telling the truth?