Q&A for Minox ZP5 5-25x56mm THLR scope

[Dobermann]

Perhaps we can turn this (and the review thread) into something of a THLR reticle repository ... here's one of the better breakdowns of the dimensions I've found.

 

[Dobermann]

And here's BigJimFish's review from SnipersHide in November, for comparison's sake: https://www.snipershide.com/precisi...zp5-5-25x56-rifle-scope-and-the-thlr-reticle/

 

[Formidilosus]

And here's BigJimFish's review from SnipersHide in November, for comparison's sake: https://www.snipershide.com/precisi...zp5-5-25x56-rifle-scope-and-the-thlr-reticle/

I had read that, and it shows the difference that context makes. In pure flat range shooting from benches at .2 mil targets, the THLR does not really have a particular advantage over the common long range reticles. As he stated, it’s usable but not especially suited for it. However in the field at short through medium ranges the common LR reticles suck, whereas the THLR excels while still being entirely usable at true long range.


The THLR is a killing reticle.

 

[Ryan Avery]

I had read that, and it shows the difference that context makes. In pure flat range shooting from benches at .2 mil targets, the THLR does not really have a particular advantage over the common long range reticles. As he stated, it’s usable but not especially suited for it. However in the field at short through medium ranges the common LR reticles suck, whereas the THLR excels while still being entirely usable at true long range.


The THLR is a killing reticle.

Drop the top dot!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Formidilosus]

Drop the top dot!

 

[HaydenLane]

I had read that, and it shows the difference that context makes. In pure flat range shooting from benches at .2 mil targets, the THLR does not really have a particular advantage over the common long range reticles. As he stated, it’s usable but not especially suited for it. However in the field at short through medium ranges the common LR reticles suck, whereas the THLR excels while still being entirely usable at true long range.


The THLR is a killing reticle.

I read that review as well. Thought it odd that he took a reticle clearly made with hunting in mind, and reviewed purely in the context of precision rifle shooting.

 

[Dobermann]

Yep, BigJim has offered a lot in his reviews, sharing practical information not always available from specs lists and is a real contributor to the precision shooting community.

In this case, I think his review shows not only that reticles are a "personal preference", or the importance of the "right reticle for the right application", but more specifically that this reticle has its own "internal logic" so to speak.

So it seems like it's a case that it's not only that it won't work to overlay other expectations of how a reticle "should" work, but that one would really need to spend time with it in the field, in an iterative process of seeing what the reticle offers, testing that, thinking about one's own shot process and how that "maps" back to the reticle, and so on ...

It's clearly not a case of just comparing it to other reticles - either in a broad sense, saying "I don't like it because it's not an 'x'-type reticle", or in specifcs that aren't really comparable, such as "but it only has one line of wind dots for holdovers". These kinds of apples to oranges comparisons won't work - either if we're comparing reticle to reticle, or the THLR reticle to other shooting contexts.

At least, this has been my experience in trying to watch Thomas's videos and think about my own applications ... we make so much sense of things by comparing them to what we already know; sometimes, we need to work out how to set that aside somewhat.

And if none of that makes sense ... what Form said!

 

[Dobermann]

The THLR is a killing reticle.

And perhaps without taking us down too much of a side-track, we should correct ourselves that we're all actually discussing the 'THLR Hybrid' reticle.

In another forum, Thomas discussed an earlier version was developed specifically with military and law enforcement in mind. I won't post a link here, as that thread was full of all sorts of unnecessary chatter, but it does include some of the history.

 

[Formidilosus]

At least, this has been my experience in trying to watch Thomas's videos and think about my own applications ... we make so much sense of things by comparing them to what we already know; sometimes, we need to work out how to set that aside somewhat.

And if none of that makes sense ... what Form said!

Nothing you said is really incorrect, I just want to make it clear to everyone that the THLR is a pure mil reticle and can be used as such with no negative consequence. I do not use, and in fact almost no one that has shot it here, has used any other the other aspects as anything but a mil based reticle, nor did any of them even notice them until being told.

It’s a well designed and open mil reticle plain and simple. IF you know the details inside of it, there are other things that can be useful, but they only apply if you care about them. Otherwise you don’t even know they are there.

 

[Dobermann]

Nothing you said is really incorrect, I just want to make it clear to everyone that the THLR is a pure mil reticle and can be used as such with no negative consequence. I do not use, and in fact almost no one that has shot it here, has used any other the other aspects as anything but a mil based reticle, nor did any of them even notice them until being told.

It’s a well designed and open mil reticle plain and simple. IF you know the details inside of it, there are other things that can be useful, but they only apply if you care about them. Otherwise you don’t even know they are there.

Thanks Form - good point, and important to have that here for everyone to remember.

I wasn't meaning to say that the reticle is difficult or incomprehensible (or not mil-based) ... more to reflect what I've been thinking through in relation to your last point about "the other things that can be useful" ...

 

[TheBloke]

In addition a well respected primary retailer I spoke to up here that pointed me towards NF and a highly accomplished instructor have both said they’ve seen numerous issues with the Minox ZP5 and won’t carry or recommend them as a result. I didn’t ask what specifically these issues were, but I trust their word and their reasoning for not carrying them.

Probably low margin or refusal to supply because of agreements with other retailers.

I know a few stores 'recommendations' tend to align with the stuff they can sell. When they lose a brand, suddenly a product seems to have all kinds of issues...

 

[TheBloke]

You might also enjoy this interview of mine with Thomas - https://precisionshooter.co.nz/thomas-haugland-aka-thlr-aka-norway/

We talk about his reticle from about 1:02 in. It doesn't sound like we will see a lot more happen with it.

 

[Dobermann]

Can’t buy em down here either. At least not 3-9s for the past 14 months and counting.

I know I've posted this elsewhere, but for those who haven't seen it, Ilya mentioned that SWFA have had some shipments over the last couple of years, but they've all gone out to fulfill backorders ...

Implication being that if you want an SWFA scope, just order from the website. Yes, there'll be a wait. But possibly not as long as if you just wait to see them show up back in stock on their website.

 

[MidGAHunter]

I know I've posted this elsewhere, but for those who haven't seen it, Ilya mentioned that SWFA have had some shipments over the last couple of years, but they've all gone out to fulfill backorders ...

Implication being that if you want an SWFA scope, just order from the website. Yes, there'll be a wait. But possibly not as long as if you just wait to see them show up back in stock on their website.

I did just that back in early November. Still waiting on my 3-9x42 bit I'm not in a huge hurry.

 

[Whisky]

I know I've posted this elsewhere, but for those who haven't seen it, Ilya mentioned that SWFA have had some shipments over the last couple of years, but they've all gone out to fulfill backorders ...

Implication being that if you want an SWFA scope, just order from the website. Yes, there'll be a wait. But possibly not as long as if you just wait to see them show up back in stock on their website.

I was told June I think on the next 3-15 shipment. I asked about backorders and she was confident there would be a quantity to fill backorders and then some.

 

[wind gypsy]

I know I've posted this elsewhere, but for those who haven't seen it, Ilya mentioned that SWFA have had some shipments over the last couple of years, but they've all gone out to fulfill backorders ...

Implication being that if you want an SWFA scope, just order from the website. Yes, there'll be a wait. But possibly not as long as if you just wait to see them show up back in stock on their website.

I’m good on scopes now, I only know they’ve been out of stock for 14 months because it’s been about that long since I sent one in for warranty.

 

[THLR]

For more info on the above, here's @THLR's Gunwerks podcast: https://www.gunwerks.com/blog/lrp-p...nd-long-range-hunting-with-thomas-haugland-58

I haven't listened to that one, if I do, the cringe-factor might overcome my will to live. It's very difficult for me to participate in a foreign language discussion, so much capacity goes into translating it's very difficult to be precise and comprehensive. It's sometimes a struggle just to complete the sentence in a meaningful way. Any score above "dim" is a success!

But Form explains very well. The reticle was a limited-resource project for me, very susceptible to various fallacies from the designer side. The original plan was always to work 100% MRAD.

The Gunwerks project was a "backseat advisory" role as I don't assess markets. Hence MOA. I bought one of the Leupolds and like it very much for my ski hunting.

ZP5 and PMII are the only scopes that so far hadn't failed on my rifles. Allthough I like the ZP5, it is a lump of a scope. The Leupold has a lovely physical format, but it simply doesn't see enough use for me to comment. For the bird hunts where I use the 221 Fireball turrets are not used and the 50-55gr FMJ flies like a bumblebee.

I have conversations regarding a pure hunting reticle project, but not sure if I'll be able to move that from words to product. My mentors that work the deer culling contracts personally shoot 400 to 700 deer per yer (meaning they themselves aim and pull the trigger) and that requires a certain economy of action and time both to manage working hours and stay profitable.

(Typed on cellphone; I probably I failed to adress quite a few questions and include spelling errors)

 

[prm]

I haven't listened to that one, if I do, the cringe-factor might overcome my will to live. It's very difficult for me to participate in a foreign language discussion, so much capacity goes into translating it's very difficult to be precise and comprehensive. It's sometimes a struggle just to complete the sentence in a meaningful way. Any score above "dim" is a success!

But Form explains very well. The reticle was a limited-resource project for me, very susceptible to various fallacies from the designer side. The original plan was always to work 100% MRAD.

The Gunwerks project was a "backseat advisory" role as I don't assess markets. Hence MOA. I bought one of the Leupolds and like it very much for my ski hunting.

ZP5 and PMII are the only scopes that so far hadn't failed on my rifles. Allthough I like the ZP5, it is a lump of a scope. The Leupold has a lovely physical format, but it simply doesn't see enough use for me to comment. For the bird hunts where I use the 221 Fireball turrets are not used and the 50-55gr FMJ flies like a bumblebee.

I have conversations regarding a pure hunting reticle project, but not sure if I'll be able to move that from words to product. My mentors that work the deer culling contracts personally shoot 400 to 700 deer per yer (meaning they themselves aim and pull the trigger) and that requires a certain economy of action and time both to manage working hours and stay profitable.

(Typed on cellphone; I probably I failed to adress quite a few questions and include spelling errors)

Thomas, anything you would change on the Minox THLR if it were applied on a 2-10x42 (give or take a bit) hunting scope that is FFP and Mils? (Edit: aside from the obvious scaling to work within a 2-10 zoom range).

 

[THLR]

Thomas, anything you would change on the Minox THLR if it were applied on a 2-10x42 (give or take a bit) hunting scope that is FFP and Mils? (Edit: aside from the obvious scaling to work within a 2-10 zoom range).

For hunting? Yes. Higher priority on observation/ damage assessment.

I'd use laser rangefinder as a design premise and remove every reticle-ranging feature. Illuminated dot would increase about 10% for speed (no sacrifice in precision) and Aim Short dot would decrease.

 

[Formidilosus]

For hunting? Yes. Higher priority on observation/ damage assessment.

I'd use laser rangefinder as a design premise and remove every reticle-ranging feature. Illuminated dot would increase about 10% for speed (no sacrifice in precision) and Aim Short dot would decrease.

That’s pretty close to what @Ryan Avery and I were discussing a couple days ago. However, might I suggest an 18”/36” ranging scale like your silhouette scale on the bottom right. Marked 18” on left, 36” on right for back to brisket measurements on animals.
While most might not use the reticle to range at all, we do every once in a while- probably one or two animals a year. This year it was elk running towards us during a snowfall and the laser RF couldn’t range due the interference. I used the reticle while my buddy tracked them and they measured between 3-4 mils back to brisket which would put them around 300 yards, he dialed for 300 and killed it as soon as it stopped. It ended up being 280’ish. Terrain was confusing and guessing the range we were off about a 100 yards.


Anyways, a quick ranging scale would be useful if it were out of the way.