Pro Shop Expectations

[sndmn11]

So which is it, does it not take hours to tune a bow or not?

No it doesn't take hours to get a paper tune usually, however a lot of people aren't touching a bow in any way without a tech there to help them along.

It does not take hours. One can put some numbers into a program for arrow spine, throw on an eye balled Hamskea, and go punch bullet holes in 15 minutes.

 

[Billy Goat]

It does not take hours. One can put some numbers into a program for arrow spine, throw on an eye balled Hamskea, and go punch bullet holes in 15 minutes.

Right, I guess we just have different expectations of what a tuned bow is. Bullet holes in paper to me ain't tuned.

I guess we just all have different expectations.

 

[sndmn11]

Right, I guess we just have different expectations of what a tuned bow is. Bullet holes in paper to me ain't tuned.

I guess we just all have different expectations.

My expectation is that it isn't the shop's responsibility to hold people's hand any further. The people who need their hand held to do more, are the people who cannot shoot well enough to figure out if the broadhead 4" right is them or the bow.

I haven't run across a bow that can sling bare shaft bullet holes at a few feet and several feet that needed anything more done to it with broadheads.

I think the goal of super tuning the bow is backwards and the focus should first be on super tuning the shooter. The easy scapegoat is to blame one's equipment, or blame the shop for not tuning it right etc.

 

[Billy Goat]

My expectation is that it isn't the shop's responsibility to hold people's hand any further. The people who need their hand held to do more, are the people who cannot shoot well enough to figure out if the broadhead 4" right is them or the bow.

I haven't run across a bow that can sling bare shaft bullet holes at a few feet and several feet that needed anything more done to it with broadheads.

I think the goal of super tuning the bow is backwards and the focus should first be on super tuning the shooter. The easy scapegoat is to blame one's equipment, or blame the shop for not tuning it right etc.

I have seen a bunch of good shooters who don't know the first thing about tuning a bow. However in target Archery it's not that critical in my opinion. If you get a good walk back, that's what you need. Except indoor, you don't need that for indoor.

I have also seen bareshafts smacking each other at 20 yards and still need some horizontal tweaking on broadheads when you get to 65-70 yards.

I'll agree that most of the time it's the shooter that needs tuning, but everything needs to be in line for it to all pay off.

 

[sndmn11]

I have seen a bunch of good shooters who don't know the first thing about tuning a bow. However in target Archery it's not that critical in my opinion. If you get a good walk back, that's what you need. Except indoor, you don't need that for indoor.

I have also seen bareshafts smacking each other at 20 yards and still need some horizontal tweaking on broadheads when you get to 65-70 yards.

I'll agree that most of the time it's the shooter that needs tuning, but everything needs to be in line for it to all pay off.

I have never met a hunter who can stack broadheads at 65-70 yards who can't loosen a rest screw and tap it one way or another. However, I also can't think of how hours would be consumed if that same person walked into a shop and said everything is perfect but at 70 yards my BH are 4" right of field points every single time. What shop wouldn't have that fixed in either one minute with a rest bump, or in 5 minutes if needed to press and twist a yoke? There isn't a reason to overcomplicate the process.

 

[dkime]

I have never met a hunter who can stack broadheads at 65-70 yards who can't loosen a rest screw and tap it one way or another. However, I also can't think of how hours would be consumed if that same person walked into a shop and said everything is perfect but at 70 yards my BH are 4" right of field points every single time. What shop wouldn't have that fixed in either one minute with a rest bump, or in 5 minutes if needed to press and twist a yoke? There isn't a reason to overcomplicate the process.

You ever tried to shim a new PSE like @OR Archer talked about earlier? Cuz the two hours I spent shimming one last night was the biggest PITA I've dealt with in a long time. I am not sure what point you're trying to prove here but I agree with @Billy Goat there are levels to all of this tuning stuff. It took 5 different tunes before I settled on what shot best for me out of my V3, each one bullet holed, each one bare shafted, each one broadhead tuned, each one had a much different nock height and top hat combo. Not a single one required me to loosen a screw and bump my rest. You get what you pay for, if someone is paying a guy to stick your bow in a press and yoke tune your bow, it tells me that for 1 he havs't bought a bow in the last 5 years because static yokes are a thing of the past (Minus EVL which wont yoke tune anyways), and 2 that a guy is really putting a lot of faith in really pretty tear in a piece of paper. We already know what a "paper tear tune" shop gets you, we live in that world currently.

 

[gelton]

Well, to add to my ongoing disappointment with my local pro shop (45 minutes from me) I bring in my bow today to get 80% mods and they don't have any in stock because no one around these parts asks for them.

But they were thoroughly impressed with my firenock lighted nocks that none of them had heard of or ever seen before....not even kidding one bit.

Edit - wasnt just there for the mods, wanted to get a paper tune in which went well.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

if someone is paying a guy to stick your bow in a press and yoke tune your bow, it tells me that for 1 he havs't bought a bow in the last 5 years because static yokes are a thing of the past (Minus EVL which wont yoke tune anyways),

Didn't Hoyt use a static yoke on the top cam up until their 2021 models?

 

[sndmn11]

You ever tried to shim a new PSE like @OR Archer talked about earlier? Cuz the two hours I spent shimming one last night was the biggest PITA I've dealt with in a long time. I am not sure what point you're trying to prove here but I agree with @Billy Goat there are levels to all of this tuning stuff. It took 5 different tunes before I settled on what shot best for me out of my V3, each one bullet holed, each one bare shafted, each one broadhead tuned, each one had a much different nock height and top hat combo. Not a single one required me to loosen a screw and bump my rest. You get what you pay for, if someone is paying a guy to stick your bow in a press and yoke tune your bow, it tells me that for 1 he havs't bought a bow in the last 5 years because static yokes are a thing of the past (Minus EVL which wont yoke tune anyways), and 2 that a guy is really putting a lot of faith in really pretty tear in a piece of paper. We already know what a "paper tear tune" shop gets you, we live in that world currently.

Nope, I don't know how long it takes to shim a PSE cam. If I had an archery shop, I wouldn't sell that bow because of that time suck.

My point is if you are the kind of person who needs 5 different tunes to be happy, that is way out of the realm of my expectation for a shop to do for you or with you. The archer needs to be mostly responsible for that process and only burden a shop if they need advice or a special tool. Those types of archers are always fiddling, I am one of them, and there is no reason to drag a shop through that merry go round.

 

[Zac]

Nope, I don't know how long it takes to shim a PSE cam. If I had an archery shop, I wouldn't sell that bow because of that time suck.

My point is if you are the kind of person who needs 5 different tunes to be happy, that is way out of the realm of my expectation for a shop to do for you or with you. The archer needs to be mostly responsible for that process and only burden a shop if they need advice or a special tool. Those types of archers are always fiddling, I am one of them, and there is no reason to drag a shop through that merry go round.

Agreed, the shop is only responsible for the useless hole you get at 6 feet. However it is their responsibility to inform the customer that they will most likely have some work ahead of them before they screw on a fixed blade broadhead. They should also provide some sort of resource for the customer to allow them to go out and perform this type of tune. This is difficult based upon the amount of YouTube geniuses that tell people to move the rest away from the broadhead impact.

 

[sndmn11]

. This is difficult based upon the amount of YouTube geniuses that tell people to move the rest away from the broadhead impact.

That's why I like the Bowtech and elite methods of moving things. Put centershot where it's supposed to be, the archer can fiddle with moving the limb/cams all they want. If someone was smart enough to sharpie some witness marks, you can get back to the start point in 2minutes. Super easy to make a change, test, make the opposite change if it got worse or didn't improve.

 

[dkime]

Didn't Hoyt use a static yoke on the top cam up until their 2021 models?

That’s a good point, frankly I was just stirring the pot while taking a break at work lol


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[Billy Goat]

That's why I like the Bowtech and elite methods of moving things. Put centershot where it's supposed to be, the archer can fiddle with moving the limb/cams all they want. If someone was smart enough to sharpie some witness marks, you can get back to the start point in 2minutes. Super easy to make a change, test, make the opposite change if it got worse or didn't improve.

They have a great system so far, the end user doesn't hardly need a press to do anything except to put strings on, put in a peep.


We will see how the systems hold up. Everyone can say they don't need a dealer/pro-shop til they need parts. I believe you already had problems with your blowtech requiring new cams from the deadlock system? Am I correct?


What do you propose for the shops that have carried a line of bows for 15 years, then the manufacturer switches tuning systems. You going to not carry that line because of the time sink? Seems like you will be bailing on previous customers and it's not always easy to pick-up a different line.

 

[Billy Goat]

Didn't Hoyt use a static yoke on the top cam up until their 2021 models?

To be fair, I think hoyt basically adopted the tech that many others went to 4-7 years ago.

I do like the static yoke, however I think it's getting replaced with better tech.

 

[sndmn11]

They have a great system so far, the end user doesn't hardly need a press to do anything except to put strings on, put in a peep.


We will see how the systems hold up. Everyone can say they don't need a dealer/pro-shop til they need parts. I believe you already had problems with your blowtech requiring new cams from the deadlock system? Am I correct?


What do you propose for the shops that have carried a line of bows for 15 years, then the manufacturer switches tuning systems. You going to not carry that line because of the time sink? Seems like you will be bailing on previous customers and it's not always easy to pick-up a different line.

Yes I did have the cams replaced on warranty and it took about 45min to do so. 15 minutes of range time and I had bare shafts with fletched at 60. Real easy stuff.

If the manufacturer was important enough in bringing customers in to me as a shop to keep, I would. I would make it clear up front to anybody who was considering purchasing that bow that it was $X to shim those cams, and it would be double the true cost of the typical cam swapper person. I would give feedback to that manufacturer on how their system is effecting my shop. If the bow was awesome enough that people were buy it left and right despite the extra cost to shim cams, then hey, that's great I just got a new revenue stream if I charge enough. If that manufacturer wasn't important to me in bringing customers in, I'd drop them.

In my eyes though, what you guys are describing with PSE would be like a dealership selling cars they knew would be in the mechanics bay within 5k miles. Eventually charging what is worth to make the repairs will not be tolerated anymore and they would either be faced with unhappy customers or losing revenue for supporting a poorly designed and faulty product.

Going back to the original question, I would not expect a shop to be spending more than a few minutes tuning a bow. I expect them to get straight arrow flight and the customer to take it from there. If it takes more than a few minutes, that to me would be an indication of the shop not doing their part in selling that customer the right components to be successful.

 

[Billy Goat]

I'll just stop. This isn't going to go anywhere productive.

 

[sndmn11]

I'll just stop. This isn't going to go anywhere productive.

Maybe it just takes a handful more hours.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Unless you are going to put a screw driver thru the cams, you need a press to put a peep sight in.

I wish other manufacturers would mimic APA's "cam lock" feature, which is basically a screwdriver through the cam by design.

 

[Billy Goat]

I wish other manufacturers would mimic APA's "cam lock" feature, which is basically a screwdriver through the cam by design.

How does it hold up on the APA? I haven't personally seen it done, I have been told it's hard on the limbs. Not from a damaging aspect, just an appearance, mars them up a bit.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

How does it hold up on the APA? I haven't personally seen it done, I have been told it's hard on the limbs. Not from a damaging aspect, just an appearance, mars them up a bit.

Couldn't tell you. I've never actually owned an APA, I'm just very intrigued by them. I was real close to ordering an APA Mamba 33 last spring but came across a Hoyt Helix at a price too good to pass up and couldn't justify buying both. I could see how the APA cam lock pin might be prone to mar the finish on the limbs, but I think I could live with that if it meant being able to change string/cables, install a peep, and yoke tune without a press.