Pressure: when is too much and why?

[bmart2622]

Sounds good, I'm going to agree to disagree that conditioning to recoil is a main issue. Appreciate the discussion, bmart!

Fixed it

 

[35WhelenAI]

No, that's not what I said. If you don't agree, then say you don't agree that conditioning to recoil is a real thing. You are willing to agree to one thing, I'm going to agree to another. That is the essence of "agree to disagree".

 

[bmart2622]

I agree with facts and logic. You dont speak for me and dont decide what I agree with

 

[Tell]

I saw a video from applied ballistics showing how much a gun moved before the bullet was out of the barrel. It was 3/8 of an inch or close to that. I don’t know the cartridge or bullet speed but I thought that was interesting. Recoil management is important, and a shooter with very poor recoil management, or someone used to shooting a 6br out of a 20lb rifle that lets it free recoil would probably shoot the 300 worse without knowing if it would kick much or not, simply because their recoil management wouldn’t be in line and consistent.

I’ve definitely seen impact shifts from body position changes, and I expect that if all you ever shot was a 22lr, your first shot of a heavy recoiling rifle wouldn’t be where it should.

What do you think whelen?

 

[35WhelenAI]

I agree with facts and logic. You dont speak for me and dont decide what I agree with

Yup, you do.

 

[35WhelenAI]

If someone put a cartridge in a chamber and told a shooter to squeeze off the shot with proper form and was truly a blind test situation the bullet is long gone before the human can feel the recoil. Things happen that fast. Second third and fourth shots, I'm not making any claim on that because that's where conditioning to recoil comes in. A bullet traveling 3000 fps takes about a literal millisecond to leave the barrel. There isn't a human alive or ever will be alive that can resond positively or negatively to anything in a millisecond, given the average human reaction time is 250 milliseconds with no external stimulus, i.e focusing on one thing and one thing only.

I am appreciative of responses here, however, this is about doing things to push velocity with unsafe pressures, and we've gotten away from that.

 

[Castle Rock]

Reacting negatively as the trigger is squeezed, is a conditioned response. As of that point, nothing has happened yet until the trigger breaks. If the squeeze is done without prejudice, the recoil will not negatively affect a shot as the bullet has left the barrel before any effect on the shooter (i.e felt recoil that would be human-affecting happens after the bullet is long gone).

Practice at a recoil level that doesn't cause a negatively conditioned response makes lesser recoiling cartridges easier to shoot accurately longer within a shooting session. And reduces recoil anticipation (flinch) in the field or at the range. My shooting every year involves lesser recoiling cartridges and then enough shots to be sure my larger caliber hunting rifle is hitting where it should and then I go hunt.

For instance, a shooter is at the range, asked to take one shot with an unknown cartridge from one gun and another shot from another unknown cartridge. Let's say one is a 300 magnum, and the other a 6.5 creed. The shooter didn't know which one they were shooting, and they use the same technique. All else equal if both guns were known to be accurate would there be a difference in bullet impact? I am only suggesting taking the human element of anticipation and fear out of it. Would there be a difference on one shot?

This is getting away from the point of the thread, but we can enjoy the respectful discussion.

Nice spiel, but you are talking out of your ass

 

[35WhelenAI]

What would you be talking out of, by going out on a limb with such original thought.

 

[wind gypsy]

If someone put a cartridge in a chamber and told a shooter to squeeze off the shot with proper form and was truly a blind test situation the bullet is long gone before the human can feel the recoil. Things happen that fast. Second third and fourth shots, I'm not making any claim on that because that's where conditioning to recoil comes in. A bullet traveling 3000 fps takes about a literal millisecond to leave the barrel. There isn't a human alive or ever will be alive that can resond positively or negatively to anything in a millisecond, given the average human reaction time is 250 milliseconds with no external stimulus, i.e focusing on one thing and one thing only.

I am appreciative of responses here, however, this is about doing things to push velocity with unsafe pressures, and we've gotten away from that.

Are you intentionally disregarding that more recoil = more movement of the rifle before the bullet exits the muzzle? Near nobody has "proper" or at least consistent form in field situations.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Are you intentionally disregarding that more recoil = more movement of the rifle before the bullet exits the muzzle? Near nobody has "proper" or at least consistent form in field situations.

LONG AS YOU DONT FLINCH LIKE A SISSY AINT GONNA BE NO DIFFERNT THAN SHOOTIN A LIL GUN CEPT YOULL ACTUALLY KILL EM WITH AN OT 6 - GOBBLESS

 

[Choupique]

Yall help me understand hot rodding cartridges. What's the point of risking at best reduced component life and at worst danger to get an extra 80 or 100 fps out of something? What's that gaining you that's worth all the extra BS?

I'm still very new to reloading so I'm asking sincerely. If you need the extra performance, why not use a caliber with more case capacity? If you don't need it, why do it?

 

[mt terry d]

If I shot my 300 WM with exactly the same body position, holding pressures, etc as
I shoot my 223,
I don't know where my bullet would hit but I do know I'd need
stitches in my eyebrow.

I don't think anyone is promoting shooting at unsafe levels or wants to shoot an unsafe load
The question is how to determine what that safe limit is.
We've had factory ammo blow primers and split cases that are loaded to government approved
"safe levels". So it's pretty obvious that's not a great metric.
Sure, we could all load 50% of what the manuals say but who would do that? Like
pulling 4 spark plugs out of an 8 cylinder engine.

Personally, I like safety, efficiency and performance in most everything
but "safety" is not the only criteria.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Yall help me understand hot rodding cartridges. What's the point of risking at best reduced component life and at worst danger to get an extra 80 or 100 fps out of something? What's that gaining you that's worth all the extra BS?

I'm still very new to reloading so I'm asking sincerely. If you need the extra performance, why not use a caliber with more case capacity? If you don't need it, why do it?

Some cartridges are notoriously neutered by factory ammo or book values and can really wake up just by hand loading, and some people are just plain stupid and risk what you mentioned. It took me a while to get comfortable with finding pressure but now I've noticed a pretty consistent trend with how Tikka actions react, and it's not a big deal.

 

[Lawnboi]

Yall help me understand hot rodding cartridges. What's the point of risking at best reduced component life and at worst danger to get an extra 80 or 100 fps out of something? What's that gaining you that's worth all the extra BS?

I'm still very new to reloading so I'm asking sincerely. If you need the extra performance, why not use a caliber with more case capacity? If you don't need it, why do it?

Pretty fine line between, ohh my barrel is just fast, while numbers suggest pushing 70+k psi and having your rifle go click on a hunt because the primer you pierced ended up in your bolt or trigger.

 

[Choupique]

Some cartridges are notoriously neutered by factory ammo or book values and can really wake up just by hand loading

Why shoot those calibers?

 

[bmart2622]

It's pretty rare that you cant beat factory ammo with handloads in most calibers and still be safe

 

[Harvey_NW]

Why shoot those calibers?

Because if you're setup to optimize them by hand loading they might fit the bill. If you're stuck to hand loads it might be worthwhile to step up. Barrels play a part too, Tikka barrels are notorious for being slower than others. Honestly, it's mostly mental masturbation.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

If someone put a cartridge in a chamber and told a shooter to squeeze off the shot with proper form and was truly a blind test situation the bullet is long gone before the human can feel the recoil. Things happen that fast. Second third and fourth shots, I'm not making any claim on that because that's where conditioning to recoil comes in. A bullet traveling 3000 fps takes about a literal millisecond to leave the barrel. There isn't a human alive or ever will be alive that can resond positively or negatively to anything in a millisecond, given the average human reaction time is 250 milliseconds with no external stimulus, i.e focusing on one thing and one thing only.

I am appreciative of responses here, however, this is about doing things to push velocity with unsafe pressures, and we've gotten away from that.

The whole point on the lower recoil cartridges (which can be taken to an extreme but lets not assume that) isn't necessarily about first shot flinch which yes it can be trained out to a degree. Its about spotting impacts and follow up shots. All chest beating aside NO ONE always has 1 shot kills and/or animals might be "dead on their feet" as they say and complicate the tracking by running off versus a follow up shot(s) dropping them quicker (regardless of caliber/cartridge). Folks mess up wind calls, have a bad shot, etc. all the time, and NO ONE is immune. A cartridge that has you looking at the sky for a bit after the shot before the scope settles back onto where the animal was, but ran off and you have no idea if it was even hit and/or where where it was hit isn't the end all be all. One that lets you see an impact/miss without the scope coming off the animal means you are far more likely to know what happened and if needed put additional shots on the animal and have an easier time recovering said animal. Apples to apples comparison (muzzle brakes can tame a big cartridge down, etc. yeah we know).

I'm a middle ground cartridge guy so I don't have a personal affinity to small cartridges or huge cartridges, thus its pretty easy for me to see the merits off the argument without either intentionally misinterpreting the argument or get into magnum chest thumping and lies about always having 1 shot kills. That comment isn't directed at you personally.

 

[Choupique]

muzzle brakes can tame a big cartridge

Idk about yall, but i can't keep my eyes open with big braked rifles. You can feel the pressure inside your head, and all the shit flying around, the noise. I'd rather the recoil. I feel like I'm back on target quicker with an unbraked rifle, within reason of course. My only data point for the same rifle braked and bare muzzle is a .300 win mag and a .35 whelen. In both rifles I prefer the recoil to the sinus shock from the brake.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Idk about yall, but i can't keep my eyes open with big braked rifles. You can feel the pressure inside your head, and all the shit flying around, the noise. I'd rather the recoil. I feel like I'm back on target quicker with an unbraked rifle, within reason of course. My only data point for the same rifle braked and bare muzzle is a .300 win mag and a .35 whelen. In both rifles I prefer the recoil to the sinus shock from the brake.

It depends on the brake I think. I had previously used MBM brakes and never experienced pressure as a shooter and didn't know why folks were commenting about it but I used a PVA jet blast this year and noticed that pressure blast as the shooter.