POSTING FOR AWARENESS FOR UTAH AND IDAHO RESIDENTS

[One300wsm]

 

[Fever Buck]

Google’s water stewardship commitments for local communities

Learn about our new water stewardship commitments, initiatives and recent Water Replenishment Projects Request for Information.

blog.google

Hope to see more companies follow this.

 

[Poser]

Tennessee just passed legistation that data centers must pay for every bit of their electrical useage -no incentaive discounts. Its insane that we even have to discuss passing such legislation. I think the only way forward is that no municiapl gives up any incentaives, not a single one, for data centers. In fact, the opposite. If these DCs are going to come in, drain the resevoirs and run of electrical bills for the residents, then the tech companies should be picking up the entire tab, possibly going so far as offering free water and electrical for the surrounding comunities. Communities need to stop whoring themselves out -these DC's should be begging for places to build and handing out crazy incentivies to the surrounding communities. The power dynamic is actually that DC's need land, water and power far more than any single community needs a data center. Communities will be better served to start acting like that is the dynamic then playing into the inverse.

 

[CJ19]

I have spent over 10 years in the AEC industry as a CAD draftsman. I have worked on projects ranging from underground tunnels to skyscrapers. I have not worked directly on data centers myself, but I have worked alongside
.......
This is a complex issue that requires level-headed discussion from both sides to find a balanced approach. Some data centers could be located in underutilized or abandoned industrial cities like Detroit, Buffalo, or Cleveland. They do not necessarily need to be built on public lands where people hunt.

People should take the time to read @VomSteinbruch 's post #140. It is an excellent and well written post. I cut out most of in my response here because I wanted to address his comment about locating data centers in "underutilized or abandoned industrial cities". This sentiment was address in a similar manor in the Meateater episode linked in post #141.

The Environmental Justice movement had been a top federal priority in the previous administration and remains a top level priority in virtually every state with democratic leadership. The Environmental Justice movement creates an additional layer of complexity for companies looking to permit and construct facilities in areas that fit criteria for EJ communities. That extra layer of complexity in the permitting process as well as additional risk associated with social and political pressure in some urban settings may serve as a deterrent when it comes to siting something like a data center in a low income urban community.

The discussion starting around post #108 about the TN Grok data center and the other media coverage of what is occurring there is an example of bad press that may discourage some companies from just avoiding that type of media, political, and other pressure by choosing a "safer" site.

 

[43.6N]

I have spent over 10 years in the AEC industry as a CAD draftsman. I have worked on projects ranging from underground tunnels to skyscrapers. I have not worked directly on data centers myself, but I have worked alongside teams who have. The first time I heard about them was in 2011, when major engineering software began migrating to cloud-based systems.

Today, all major AEC firms offer data center design and construction services, every one of them, even those that position themselves as more environmentally conscious.

Virtually all serious software that manages our daily lives, ranging from grocery stores to hospitals, and from traffic systems to banking, has moved to the cloud. An enormous amount of data is constantly being processed and analyzed, including data related to national security. We are in last stage of the 1st phase of the digital revolution.

For years, very few people paid attention to data centers. That changed about 2–3 years ago with the rise of AI, which has accelerated demand dramatically.

I understand both sides of this issue, and I believe this is one of those rare cases where both perspectives raise valid concerns: environmental protection and land access on one hand, and national security and economic demand on the other.

Data centers are here to stay. The level of interest and investment behind them is too significant, and it cuts across political lines.

I am also familiar with the history of nuclear energy in the U.S. (from an AEC perspective), including how anti-nuclear sentiment, influenced by the Soviets during the Cold War, eventually shaped public opinion and policy. This contributed to the limited expansion of nuclear energy as a cheap and green resource in the U.S. Instead, we now rely more heavily on alternatives such as wind energy, sometimes at the expense of habitats like prairies used by ground dwelling upland birds. The decline in large scale energy expansion in the U.S. and other Western countries was, in many ways, a policy choice.

That said, I am not accusing those who oppose data centers of acting in bad faith. I believe most people raising concerns are sincere.

As a hunter, dog trainer, and amateur geographer, I understand the importance of land access, habitat preservation, and protecting the natural beauty of public lands and preserves. At the same time, I also recognize the importance of advanced computing and AI for national security and economic growth.

This is a complex issue that requires level-headed discussion from both sides to find a balanced approach. Some data centers could be located in underutilized or abandoned industrial cities like Detroit, Buffalo, or Cleveland. They do not necessarily need to be built on public lands where people hunt.

Really interesting corollary to the counter-nuclear movement and how the soviets influenced public sentiment.

So I guess the logical question/conclusion would be: does division over data centers benefit china/russia? If so, we can be sure that they are doing their best to play the division and sway the popular opinion in their favor.

 

[VomSteinbruch]

@43.6N

I am sure Russia is involved in shaping public opinion, but I don’t think they are as advanced in AI as China is. In fact, they are quite behind and rely on Chinese models.

China is only six months behind according to the AI news updates. It is within their strategic interest to make AI computation cost-prohibitive or, at the very least, expensive in the US. They themselves don’t face this issue as they can build whatever they want and wherever they want. They also don’t face political opposition.


China knows they can’t beat the Americans in talent, but they can make America’s AI goals harder by controlling and funding many, shall we say, leftist organizations who oppose data centers. Paradoxically, these people also get funded by the federal government via environmental grants.

And unfortunately, we have to face this: American environmentalism and its adjacent activists have always been leftist organizations. Even when they say they are non-partisan (which they aren’t), they still are ideologically on the left and therefore operate with a very specific mindset.

One of the distinct characteristics of the American environmentalism school is the absence of humans in their equations, which are supposed to solve the environmental challenges. They have always been anti-human and pro-degrowth.

It is tragic that conservation and environmental issues are in the hands of childless misanthropic people who will gladly sacrifice your kids to some deranged rewilding programs.

Since these people are politically on the same side as China and have similar aspirations (global revolution), it is quite easy for them to influence the AI discourse through environmental activism.

The Russians did that in the 70s to America. American NGOs did that to Germany (the entire green movement in is actually funded by the US) recently. It is a pretty well-tested political tool.

Needless to say the people who are concerned about the data centers popping up in their neighborhoods are all chines spy. There are legitimate concerns about the data centers.

 

[VomSteinbruch]

@One300wsm

I like Steve. I have really enjoyed most of his podcasts and agree with him on many things, but has he ever discussed and even criticized the idea of building solars panels and windmills on the public lands? I am genuinely curious.

Erecting windmills and collars on public lands in the Green New Deal agenda is seriously considered by a few think tanks who often influence the federal policies.

 

[realunlucky]

The real problem is there is a bunch of money in data centers and their incentives make people break/change the rules. Those trying to benefit say it's un-American to oppose something that's totally unvetted and has plenty of potential to be catastrophic if not done right. Why would we support fast tracking anything of that nature? Trust the government that's it's a national security issue? Would love to see a poll on who believes that.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

 

[43.6N]

@43.6N

I am sure Russia is involved in shaping public opinion, but I don’t think they are as advanced in AI as China is. In fact, they are quite behind and rely on Chinese models.

China is only six months behind according to the AI news updates. It is within their strategic interest to make AI computation cost-prohibitive or, at the very least, expensive in the US. They themselves don’t face this issue as they can build whatever they want and wherever they want. They also don’t face political opposition.


China knows they can’t beat the Americans in talent, but they can make America’s AI goals harder by controlling and funding many, shall we say, leftist organizations who oppose data centers. Paradoxically, these people also get funded by the federal government via environmental grants.

And unfortunately, we have to face this: American environmentalism and its adjacent activists have always been leftist organizations. Even when they say they are non-partisan (which they aren’t), they still are ideologically on the left and therefore operate with a very specific mindset.

One of the distinct characteristics of the American environmentalism school is the absence of humans in their equations, which are supposed to solve the environmental challenges. They have always been anti-human and pro-degrowth.

It is tragic that conservation and environmental issues are in the hands of childless misanthropic people who will gladly sacrifice your kids to some deranged rewilding programs.

Since these people are politically on the same side as China and have similar aspirations (global revolution), it is quite easy for them to influence the AI discourse through environmental activism.

The Russians did that in the 70s to America. American NGOs did that to Germany (the entire green movement in is actually funded by the US) recently. It is a pretty well-tested political tool.

Needless to say the people who are concerned about the data centers popping up in their neighborhoods are all chines spy. There are legitimate concerns about the data centers.

I appreciate the broader geopolitical perspective.

I think we would be naive to assume that our squabbles, debates, and disagreements are not being closely analyzed by our enemies for any opportunity to co-opt them to their advantage.

But clearly, that alone should not be the argument that gives the “correct” answer.

I’d much rather be able to consider the merits of both sides with eyes wide open to the potential bias and pitfalls that come with each position.

 

[One300wsm]

The real problem is there is a bunch of money in data centers and their incentives make people break/change the rules. Those trying to benefit say it's un-American to oppose something that's totally unvetted and has plenty of potential to be catastrophic if not done right. Why would we support fast tracking anything of that nature? Trust the government that's it's a national security issue? Would love to see a poll on who believes that.

Sent from my SM-S926U using Tapatalk

Yea like a Covid vaccine for instance.

 

[VomSteinbruch]

Those trying to benefit say it's un-American to oppose something that's totally unvetted and has plenty of potential to be catastrophic if not done right.

It is totally normal to question and oppose data centers. Some people have undeniably been sleazy about it because there is enormous money to be made via the government or tech companies contracts.

It is quite American to question whether your taxes are funding something that you have concerns with.

AI opens up the gates we don’t know what lays beyond them. My job will very likely be replaced by AI. ( I’ll have a good reason to become a farmer and a full time dog trainer)

However, they are coming and every major AEC corporation offers a full service which includes land survey, civil engineering, permitting, building design and MEP design as well as the post construction building maintenance. There is unbelievable large sums of money circulating.

It is one thing say that “I oppose data centers in the areas where we hunt, hike, where my kids go camping and where important habitat lays” and “I oppose date centers”.

This type of overt generalization got us to the place where we don’t have enough nuclear power and our energy bills are very high compared to what people initially thought in the 50s and the 60s. One of the reason we didn’t have electric cars at full scale is not only the oil mafia but also the electricity never becoming dirt cheap. And exactly what was promised and was not delivered due to the rabid opposition to nuclear power.