POSTING FOR AWARENESS FOR UTAH AND IDAHO RESIDENTS

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Anyone who thinks growing corn to make ethanol for fuel makes any kind of real economic sense needs his head examined. Take away the absurd subsidies for it and it collapses overnight.

Don't forget the EPA mandates that started us down the rabbit hole...

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I don't think this is true. Forces much larger than any individual consumer or demand dictate what we do and invest in as a society and country. If you don't think those forces/powers have the ability to manufacture demand and consent, as well as subsidize and physically defend and enforce these technologies, then you are misinformed


I literally cannot purchase non-ethanol gas in the county I live in. I have no choice other than to not drive or drive electric. Either of those are logistically difficult or expensive options. I cannot ditch consumer electronics, or electronics of any kind really, and still maintain a job and income, have my kids attend school, etc. Same with the internet. Impossible. Bills, banking, employment, etc, depend on internet access and use. Therefore it is not a simple "freedom to choose" or "lifestyle changes". You would essentially have to become a hermit and live completely off grid to really implement the ideas you've presented here. There are serious barriers to objection or abstention that have been intentionally constructed and implemented.

and you highlighted my point. The genie is out of the bottle. When technology goes from a privilege to a commodity (ex. ipads and laptops in schools vs. paper and writing) our dependence is sealed.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Sidebar moderately interesting story:

Many years ago when the ethanol scam was in its earlier days, we were at church one morning and another member voiced a prayer request for wisdom about some upcoming life changes. We were in a small group setting and when we asked details, he said - basically - that he was an accountant, and he had to change jobs.

Why?

Well, he was an accountant that had taken a job at an ethanol-related firm. Once he started working he began to look over numbers (because that's what accountants do) and he realized that the entire thing was a scam and he was deeply convicted that he couldn't in clear conscience work for such a farce of a company anymore and he was terrified of losing his livelihood.

He quit very soon afterwards. We lost track of him when we moved out of the area. But I'll never forget that conversation.

It is my belief that the ethanol scam as we know it simply would not exist if not for the timing of the 'Iowa Caucus' every 4 years.

(/end thread hijack)

The EPA established the mandate for ethanol as part of the Renewable Fuels Standard. Iowans are both the benefactors and victims.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Because there is not enough water to fill it, unless you deprive someone or something (fish) of their water in much of the west. Colorado River is poster child for oversubscribed use.

Last I heard it stops way short of its original mouth due to overuse.

 

[Rotnguns]

Yes, I agree with what you are saying and I appreciate you being respectful with it. I would be curious what their PUE is to truly know what the actual heat output would be. And, like you said, who knows if they’ll build to their nameplate or not. I’ve yet to see any DC build to full capacity.

Thanks, and I enjoy discussing this issue, especially with another engineer. My specialties are vibrations, acoustics, and machine dynamics, but I was involved with a nearby combined cycle plant on a research project with Idaho Power (the plant is in New Plymouth, Idaho). What I'm wondering: can the hot water exiting the data center be incorporated into the low or medium reheat water pipes for the combined-cycle plants? It's my understanding that both the data center and the plants will not be using evaporative cooling towers, so if the water from the plants needs to be chilled anyway before entering the low temperature piping, why not take advantage of the hot water from the data center, and use only one set of chillers on the plant side in the process, eliminating the need for separate chillers on the data center?

 

[Beendare]

I'd say its perfectly reasonable to expect multi billion dollar tech copmpanies to invest in their own power infrastructure and to use more expensive cooling alternatives to the local aquifer, of which there are multiple options including closed loop systems. But they aren't doing that because no one is requiring them to do that.

Now you are hitting on the main issue. Require these data centers to be stand alone- done deal.

Its interesting who is behind the negative publicity; China and Soros;

China was caught spouting propaganda against data centers here in the US- they don't want us getting ahead

Soros is contributing millions to fight data centers in Texas.

 

[solarshooter]

Require these data centers to be stand alone

This is impossible. Physically impossible.

Its interesting who is behind the negative publicity; China and Soros;

China was caught spouting propaganda against data centers here in the US- they don't want us getting ahead

Soros is contributing millions to fight data centers in Texas.

This is wild, baseless conspiracy. See any of the references I pasted in earlier. This isn't some coordinated smear campaign. We aren't "falling behind".

 

[CJ19]

This is impossible. Physically impossible.


This is wild, baseless conspiracy. See any of the references I pasted in earlier. This isn't some coordinated smear campaign. We aren't "falling behind".

I bet some of the engineers and geologists at the companies working for these firms are going to figure out the water solution for closed loop or other cool systems in these western states. They are already finding ways to get them off the grid with the solar potential in western states.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2045166841236951365

I am not sure why people are so shocked these facilities are following the renewable energy to the western US. This is exactly what the proponents of renewable energy advertised and data centers were on the radar when the Western Solar Plan ROD was completed. The proponents of this development said they wanted to make the western US the focal point for renewable energy development and that massive investment and jobs would follow. Isn't that what this is? Like I said, I am not really for or against it, but this is like a lot of other things. It was predictable and should have been a topic of discussion when the plans to move enormous portions of the United States energy generation and transmission infrastructure to the western united states occurred. That was like 5-10 years ago when those discussions happened. The segment of people that said it was not as environmental friendly as advertised, lost the discussion. Now here we are.

 

[One300wsm]

I bet some of the engineers and geologists at the companies working for these firms are going to figure out the water solution for closed loop or other cool systems in these western states. They are already finding ways to get them off the grid with the solar potential in western states.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2045166841236951365

I am not sure why people are so shocked these facilities are following the renewable energy to the western US. This is exactly what the proponents of renewable energy advertised and data centers were on the radar when the Western Solar Plan ROD was completed. The proponents of this development said they wanted to make the western US the focal point for renewable energy development and that massive investment and jobs would follow. Isn't that what this is? Like I said, I am not really for or against it, but this is like a lot of other things. It was predictable and should have been a topic of discussion when the plans to move enormous portions of the United States energy generation and transmission infrastructure to the western united states occurred. That was like 5-10 years ago when those discussions happened. The segment of people that said it was not as environmental friendly as advertised, lost the discussion. Now here we are.

Renewable energy sucks for a reliable power source bottom line. You know how many panels it would require to run a DC of that size ? Probably the state of Utah. It’s laughable at best.

 

[Rotnguns]

I bet some of the engineers and geologists at the companies working for these firms are going to figure out the water solution for closed loop or other cool systems in these western states. They are already finding ways to get them off the grid with the solar potential in western states.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2045166841236951365

I am not sure why people are so shocked these facilities are following the renewable energy to the western US. This is exactly what the proponents of renewable energy advertised and data centers were on the radar when the Western Solar Plan ROD was completed. The proponents of this development said they wanted to make the western US the focal point for renewable energy development and that massive investment and jobs would follow. Isn't that what this is? Like I said, I am not really for or against it, but this is like a lot of other things. It was predictable and should have been a topic of discussion when the plans to move enormous portions of the United States energy generation and transmission infrastructure to the western united states occurred. That was like 5-10 years ago when those discussions happened. The segment of people that said it was not as environmental friendly as advertised, lost the discussion. Now here we are.

Solar needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Don't be taken in by "nameplate capacity," solar farms have among the lowest capacity factors (actual power output/nameplate capacity) in the business. Consider the state-of-the-art Gonghe Talatan Solar Park in China, incorporating all types of storage, including pumped flow into a nearby dam. The facility covers 162 square miles, with a nameplate capacity of 21 GW, but it only provides about 2.05 GW over a year, for a capacity factor of less than 10%. If you want to power the proposed 9 GW data center in Northern Utah with a solar farm, using an estimate based upon scaling the Gonghe Talatan park, you'd need about 710 square miles, or 454 400 acres - that's about 70% of the entire state of Rhode Island. The reasons for such a low capacity factor are the need to seriously overbuild capacity to provide fixed power, day or night; charge-discharge cycle losses of the storage batteries (Round Trip Efficiency, or RTE); non-optimal periods of solar radiation; losses due to inverting the power so it can be transmitted; and degradation of the panels and the lithium storage batteries (Vanadium flow batteries don't degrade but they are very inefficient).

 

[Rotnguns]

Now you are hitting on the main issue. Require these data centers to be stand alone- done deal.

Its interesting who is behind the negative publicity; China and Soros;

China was caught spouting propaganda against data centers here in the US- they don't want us getting ahead

Soros is contributing millions to fight data centers in Texas.

If by "stand alone," you mean that the data centers should include generation facilities, that's what's being proposed. The Northern Utah data center complex also includes electrical energy generation capacity of 7.5 GW, in the form of combined-cycle plants fueled by natural gas.

 

[One300wsm]

Solar needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Don't be taken in by "nameplate capacity," solar farms have among the lowest capacity factors (actual power output/nameplate capacity) in the business. Consider the state-of-the-art Gonghe Talatan Solar Park in China, incorporating all types of storage, including pumped flow into a nearby dam. The facility covers 162 square miles, with a nameplate capacity of 21 GW, but it only provides about 2.05 GW over a year, for a capacity factor of less than 10%. If you want to power the proposed 9 GW data center in Northern Utah with a solar farm, using an estimate based upon scaling the Gonghe Talatan park, you'd need about 710 square miles, or 454 400 acres - that's about 70% of the entire state of Rhode Island. The reasons for such a low capacity factor are the need to seriously overbuild capacity to provide fixed power, day or night; charge-discharge cycle losses of the storage batteries (Round Trip Efficiency, or RTE); non-optimal periods of solar radiation; losses due to inverting the power so it can be transmitted; and degradation of the panels and the lithium storage batteries (Vanadium flow batteries don't degrade but they are very inefficient).

This pretty much sums up the solar theory.
The Stratos Project (Box Elder County)

• Energy Demand: 9 gigawatts (GW)
• Solar Land Needed: 3.6 million acres
  The Solution: Because solar alone cannot support the constant baseline draw, developers (including Kevin O'Leary's O'Leary Digital) plan to generate power on-site using the Ruby Pipeline for natural gas turbines.

Which you as taxpayers will pay for.

 

[CJ19]

Solar needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Don't be taken in by "nameplate capacity," solar farms have among the lowest capacity factors (actual power output/nameplate capacity) in the business. Consider the state-of-the-art Gonghe Talatan Solar Park in China, incorporating all types of storage, including pumped flow into a nearby dam. The facility covers 162 square miles, with a nameplate capacity of 21 GW, but it only provides about 2.05 GW over a year, for a capacity factor of less than 10%. If you want to power the proposed 9 GW data center in Northern Utah with a solar farm, using an estimate based upon scaling the Gonghe Talatan park, you'd need about 710 square miles, or 454 400 acres - that's about 70% of the entire state of Rhode Island. The reasons for such a low capacity factor are the need to seriously overbuild capacity to provide fixed power, day or night; charge-discharge cycle losses of the storage batteries (Round Trip Efficiency, or RTE); non-optimal periods of solar radiation; losses due to inverting the power so it can be transmitted; and degradation of the panels and the lithium storage batteries (Vanadium flow batteries don't degrade but they are very inefficient).

I guess thats why the Western Solar Plan encompasses 31 millions acres or the size of Pennsylvania. They had only planned on using 700,000 acres for generation though according the BLM and DOI Sec. Haaland at the time.

 

[Rotnguns]

I guess thats why the Western Solar Plan encompasses 31 millions acres or the size of Pennsylvania. They had only planned on using 700,000 acres for generation though according the BLM and DOI Sec. Haaland at the time.

That was the wacky Biden directive to open up over 30 million acres of BLM land for solar farms. That land would have been entirely fenced off with chain link, just like the existing farms in Southern Idaho. Would have been inaccessible to humans and non-bird critters alike.

 

[Rotnguns]

This pretty much sums up the solar theory.
The Stratos Project (Box Elder County)

• Energy Demand: 9 gigawatts (GW)
• Solar Land Needed: 3.6 million acres
  The Solution: Because solar alone cannot support the constant baseline draw, developers (including Kevin O'Leary's O'Leary Digital) plan to generate power on-site using the Ruby Pipeline for natural gas turbines.

Which you as taxpayers will pay for.

Thanks for this informative post. Sounds like they would need far more land than I estimated - perhaps due to the northern latitude of Northern Utah. Also, access roads, buffer zones, etc, would expand the footprint considerably.

 

[The Ri Guy]

*once again laughs in industrial distribution career*

Maybe we should go back to the horse and buggy days?

Do you really think these data centers are going to suck the Electricity and water from your area and leave you high and dry?

Those centers have a captive water system that recycles their own water. Local residents should be insisting the centers have their own power system like a small nuke.

With those 2 things in place, whats the big deal?

It doesn’t actually work that way.

The company I work for has been front and center designing these loops for two of the major players everyone utilizes services from daily in their personal and professional capacities.

Closed loops are only closed until:

1. Regular PM cycles occur on a short basis to repair pumps, replace systemic failures across gasket seals, valve seats, air vents, purge air inclusion, etc.

2. Deposition occurs inside microchannels on the chips requiring a line purge and swap out.

3. You realize 99.5% recirc retention is on a 20 minute loop cycle, so they lose 3% per day and require millions or billions of gallons of additional input annually. The average hyper scale facility typically requires 10k gallons of evaporative H2O replacement inputs per day.

4. For the sake of my own amusement I left out sample pulls, system infrastructure erosion and cavitation, blowdown requirements, the fact that a standard 100MW facility used ~75k residences worth of power and water, etc. etc. etc.

These threads always amuse me, the general public is beyond laughably ignorant about the actual resource requirements to run these facilities and the heat management requirements.

You can bet your ass I’m going to make my M’s while it’s raining gold for my industry and laugh from my entrenched estate with water rights in a decade though.

 

[CJ19]

That was the wacky Biden directive to open up over 30 million acres of BLM land for solar farms. That land would have been entirely fenced off with chain link, just like the existing farms in Southern Idaho. Would have been inaccessible to humans and non-bird critters alike.

that is not the case. it was a pre review of sorts to identify areas preferable for solar application. The entire area would not be fenced. Individual solar permits with in WSP coverage would require their own project permit. Each permit would have to go through the permitting process. The 31 million acres was supposed to be excess area to give the individual project flexibility to avoid problem within the pre-approved area. Modelling forecast suggested 700,000 acres would be all that was required to meet the net-zero benchmark the administration was striving for by 2035. I made a very long post about it like I said before. You can find the links in my post on the conservation forum to the 2025 modelling work by NREL that was used and from there earlier variations of those publications/modelling if its something you really care about. or just DM me and ill send it to you if you are desperate to read it. There is also a rokcast about the Solar Plan that is quite good. Mule Deer Migration with TCRP or something. March 2024 is the date of the Rokcast if i recall.

 

[solarshooter]

You can bet your ass I’m going to make my M’s while it’s raining gold for my industry and laugh from my entrenched estate with water rights in a decade though.

Can't tell if you're joking. If not, this is a messed up attitude. The core of the problem really.

 

[The Ri Guy]

Can't tell if you're joking. If not, this is a messed up attitude. The core of the problem really.

There is nothing any of us can do to stop it short of all-out global revolution against the technocrats, and a return to more archaic times.

The Fed is beholden to big tech now, and geopolitical power in general is also beholden to big tech now.

Given those facts, what man would not maximize his personal financial potential and secure generational wealth for his family?

It will be the only way to survive independently in the coming decades. I do not plan to sit idly by and let my descendants be farmed by technocrats like the rest of humanity if I can help it.

If you saw some of the shit we saw behind NDA’s from these big tech companies, you’d rest assured we’re returning to a caste based society and eventual financial slavery for the non-ultra wealthy whether anyone likes it or not.

 

[solarshooter]

Given those facts, what man would not maximize his personal financial potential and secure generational wealth for his family?

Whatever helps you sleep at night.