Poll - One all around single cartridge under conditions

[USAF Ret]

Not for you to decide.
He can always sell a few and buy new.

Nope. I am not buying any more rifles. It will have to be something from my current inventory. I have some pretty nice rifles.

 

[cal30_sniper]

You have a 6.5 Grendel and a 25-06 per your other comments in the thread. Those cover 100% of possible deer and elk hunting needs, so you could just sell all of the ones you listed.

Of the ones you listed, 6.5CM is as close to an objectively best choice as you can get for your listed restrictions. Factory ammo is relatively cheap, available, and GOOD. 6.5 also has far more selection/availability in lighter weight bullets compared to either 7mm or .308, which is what you need to be looking at given your recoil constraints. Capable .284 or .308 bullets in the 120gr or less range are almost non-existent in those chamberings, while the 6.5CM is loaded with options in that bullet weight class.

You will notice the difference in recoil between a 120gr 6.5CM and a 140gr 7mm-08 or 150gr .308.

 

[z987k]

You have a 6.5 Grendel and a 25-06 per your other comments in the thread. Those cover 100% of possible deer and elk hunting needs, so you could just sell all of the ones you listed.

Of the ones you listed, 6.5CM is as close to an objectively best choice as you can get for your listed restrictions. Factory ammo is relatively cheap, available, and GOOD. 6.5 also has far more selection/availability in lighter weight bullets compared to either 7mm or .308, which is what you need to be looking at given your recoil constraints. Capable .284 or .308 bullets in the 120gr or less range are almost non-existent in those chamberings, while the 6.5CM is loaded with options in that bullet weight class.

You will notice the difference in recoil between a 120gr 6.5CM and a 140gr 7mm-08 or 150gr .308.

But not hardly any between a 143 6.5CM and a 139gr 7-08.
A 150 in a 7-08 and a 150 in a 6.5cm are also so close in recoil I don't think many people could tell the difference. It's like 3gr of powder.

 

[cal30_sniper]

But not hardly any between a 143 6.5CM and a 139gr 7-08.
A 150 in a 7-08 and a 150 in a 6.5cm are also so close in recoil I don't think many people could tell the difference. It's like 3gr of powder.

Right, but someone who's recoil sensitive (particularly due to an injury) wouldn't want to use 140gr options if they can avoid it.

That's the gist of my reply. There's a LOT of options for the 6.5 between 100-120 grs that are perfectly suited to the OP's use case. There's very few options in the 7mm range in this weight. The historical line in bullet options in the 25 years that I've been messing with 6.5s and 7s has always been right about the 140gr line. 6.5 has much better options below that, both have good options around that, 7mm has much better options above that weight.

For 7mm at 120grs, you're pretty much limited to Nosler BTs and Sierra Pro-hunters. I'm not aware of options below that grain weight other than varmint bullets in 7mm. Lots more options in that range for 6.5s, particularly with all the bullets that have come out in recent years for the Grendel.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I’ve shot some great groups with 120-grain spitzers from a 7mm RM. Not trendy today, but back when “moar speed” was everything, they were like laser beams.

I’d still pick the 6.5 CM out of the options you have.

 

[USAF Ret]

So, the one thing for sure and for certain is I will be selling the two 280 AI rifles I own. One is a HOWA custom with a 26" Bartlein barrel and a Stocky's carbon stock. The other is a new, unshot, Weatherby Range XP 2.0. I bought those because I absolutely fell in love with that cartridge and it is tough to get rid of them. But if it hurts to shoot them, they are paper weights.

I am going to restock my 7mm-08 and sell the current stock to see if I can make it as comfortable as my Bergara to shoot to be able to do an apples to apples comparison. Out of sheer curiosity, I am going to shoot the 6.5 PRC and see what the recoil feels like. That is a tough one, because it is new and never been fired. So, I won't be able to say that if/when selling it.

Thanks all.

 

[USAF Ret]

Right, but someone who's recoil sensitive (particularly due to an injury) wouldn't want to use 140gr options if they can avoid it.

That's the gist of my reply. There's a LOT of options for the 6.5 between 100-120 grs that are perfectly suited to the OP's use case. There's very few options in the 7mm range in this weight. The historical line in bullet options in the 25 years that I've been messing with 6.5s and 7s has always been right about the 140gr line. 6.5 has much better options below that, both have good options around that, 7mm has much better options above that weight.

For 7mm at 120grs, you're pretty much limited to Nosler BTs and Sierra Pro-hunters. I'm not aware of options below that grain weight other than varmint bullets in 7mm. Lots more options in that range for 6.5s, particularly with all the bullets that have come out in recent years for the Grendel.

I have some 120 Barnes TTSX in 7mm that could be a good pill for elk. I know they are for deer. I just have not done much testing with them.

 

[cal30_sniper]

I have some 120 Barnes TTSX in 7mm that could be a good pill for elk. I know they are for deer. I just have not done much testing with them.

If you're open to shooting coppers, there's some good 6.5 options in the 100gr range. My Tikka 6.5x55 shoots 100gr HHTs very well (and very fast).

 

[Tx270WT]

I wouldn’t gamble a 1-2x chance at an elk on a 6.5cm, that’s the only regret with it given your requirements. It’s fine for a whitetail cartridge.

 

[cal30_sniper]

I wouldn’t gamble a 1-2x chance at an elk on a 6.5cm, that’s the only regret with it given your requirements. It’s fine for a whitetail cartridge.

Would you also not gamble on a 270 Win for elk?

 

[AkMtnRunner]

Selecting one as a do it all, there are going to be compromises somewhere. If needing to pick the right bullet and shot opportunity on an elk or two with a 6.5 creedmoor is the worst end of it, I'd call that a win.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

7mm-08, all day every day and twice on Sunday.

140 grain's over 41 to 42 grains of Varget = 100% everything a 6.5 Creedmoor is in terms of recoil and effective performance inside the 1/4 mile mark

Several bonuses over the 6.5 Creedmoor.

Bonus #1 - you can huck heavier and higher BC bullets if you want for elk/moose/and what-have-you (7mm 162 ELD-X has higher BC than the 143 6.5, and if you get a fast enough twist, the 175 ELD-X has a ridiculous BC - 2525 FPS at the muzzle, and it's still trucking 2k FPS out past 1/4 mile).

Bonus #2 - 308 brass is the most plentiful and most likely to be found free or near-free of all rifle cartridges except for 223. Neck that down into 7-08 brass all day with 0 issues (but you're buying 6.5 Creedmoor brass).

Bonus #3 - perhaps best of all, you'll never have to listen to your buddies talk s**t about you shooting a "6.5 ManBun" or a "6.5 NeedsMore".

 

[rustyN]

Yes, another poll because they are fun and provide me wisdom and knowledge from folks.

You have decided to downsize significantly. You want to keep one caliber with the following considerations:
1) Mostly whitetail hunting within 300 yards, with a possibility of 400 yards.
2) A possible elk or mule deer hunt once, twice at the most.
3) The possibility of future neck and shoulder problems worsening, causing additional recoil sensitivity.
4) You reload.

No reason for more than a 6ARC in this scenario. My 16.5" 6ARC bolt gun will still exceed the minimum expansion velocity for 108 ELDs out to 450 yards.

Lots of data on this forum for the 6mms and their effectiveness.

 

[cal30_sniper]

7mm-08, all day every day and twice on Sunday.

140 grain's over 41 to 42 grains of Varget = 100% everything a 6.5 Creedmoor is in terms of recoil and effective performance inside the 1/4 mile mark

To be precise, the load you describe is 126% in terms of recoil compared to a 120gr 6.5CM load over 40 grains of Varget.

That's a noticeable difference in the shoulder pocket for zero gain in ballistic performance.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

To be precise, the load you describe is 126% in terms of recoil compared to a 120gr 6.5CM load over 40 grains of Varget.

That's a noticeable difference in the shoulder pocket for zero gain in ballistic performance.

Sure, if you compare apples and oranges. However, a 120 grain bullet (Nosler BT for example) in a 7mm-08 vs a 120 in a Creedmoor, would again be more/less identical.

Actually, to be truly apples to apples, we should match velocities as well:

42 grains of H4350 in a 6.5CM pushes a 140 grain bullet around 2700 FPS in a 22 inch barrel.

42 grains of varget in a 7mm-08 can push a 140 grain bullet up near 2820 FPS in a 22 inch barrel.

To match velocities, we have to dial the Varget back to around 40 grains to slow to 140 bullet in the 7mm-08 to the same speed as the Creedmoor at max load, so the 7mm-08 will actually have LESS recoil at that point.

Though, the recoil of both is going to be so similar, you'd have to shoot the side by side in identically configured rifles to ever be able to tell the difference (and even then, I'd be surprised if you could).

 

[cal30_sniper]

Sure, if you compare apples and oranges. However, a 120 grain bullet (Nosler BT for example) in a 7mm-08 vs a 120 in a Creedmoor, would again be more/less identical.

Actually, to be truly apples to apples, we should match velocities as well:

42 grains of H4350 in a 6.5CM pushes a 140 grain bullet around 2700 FPS in a 22 inch barrel.

42 grains of varget in a 7mm-08 can push a 140 grain bullet up near 2820 FPS in a 22 inch barrel.

To match velocities, we have to dial the Varget back to around 40 grains to slow to 140 bullet in the 7mm-08 to the same speed as the Creedmoor at max load, so the 7mm-08 will actually have LESS recoil at that point.

Though, the recoil of both is going to be so similar, you'd have to shoot the side by side in identically configured rifles to ever be able to tell the difference (and even then, I'd be surprised if you could).

Yes, you'd probably have to shoot both side by side, OR have a physical injury that makes you recoil susceptible as is the case for the OP. Physics is physics and there is a quantifiable difference in recoil between the two cartridges at the same ballistic level, just as a 6CM would have even less recoil for the same ballistic performance if the OP was open to options he doesn't already own.

You're cherry picking data in your "apples to apples" comparison above. The appropriate "apples to apples" comparison in terminal performance between 6.5mm and 7mm bullets is 120gr and 140gr respectively, based on a simple calculation of Sectional Density (.246 vs .248). This is also an appropriate comparison from an external ballistic perspective based on comparing BCs within common bullet families. Continuing with the Ballistic Tip family you've referenced above, from both a sectional density and BC measurement:
120gr .264 = 140gr .284
100gr .264 = 120gr .284

I'm betting there's an unwritten reason why you've chosen Ballistic Tips and 140gr bullets for the comparison above. Looking in the 100gr or 120gr class, the 6.5mm has FAR more bullet options and MUCH better ballistic coefficients available.

I'm also not sure why you'd match velocities in any theoretical or real comparison of the two cartridges? Given the ballistically inferior performance of 7mm bullets in the same weight as 6.5mm bullets, you'd HAVE to start the 7mm faster for identical terminal performance unless you plan on placing the muzzle on your target animal before pulling the trigger.

From a light recoil perspective, the 6.5CM wins by a measurable amount compared to 7mm-08. Relative powder capacity and available bullet weights in the respective calibers make this as close to an absolute as you can get in this world.

 

[NorthIdahoDude]

Yes, you'd probably have to shoot both side by side, OR have a physical injury that makes you recoil susceptible as is the case for the OP. Physics is physics and there is a quantifiable difference in recoil between the two cartridges at the same ballistic level, just as a 6CM would have even less recoil for the same ballistic performance if the OP was open to options he doesn't already own.

You're cherry picking data in your "apples to apples" comparison above. The appropriate "apples to apples" comparison in terminal performance between 6.5mm and 7mm bullets is 120gr and 140gr respectively, based on a simple calculation of Sectional Density (.246 vs .248). This is also an appropriate comparison from an external ballistic perspective based on comparing BCs within common bullet families. Continuing with the Ballistic Tip family you've referenced above, from both a sectional density and BC measurement:
120gr .264 = 140gr .284
100gr .264 = 120gr .284

I'm betting there's an unwritten reason why you've chosen Ballistic Tips and 140gr bullets for the comparison above. Looking in the 100gr or 120gr class, the 6.5mm has FAR more bullet options and MUCH better ballistic coefficients available.

I'm also not sure why you'd match velocities in any theoretical or real comparison of the two cartridges? Given the ballistically inferior performance of 7mm bullets in the same weight as 6.5mm bullets, you'd HAVE to start the 7mm faster for identical terminal performance unless you plan on placing the muzzle on your target animal before pulling the trigger.

From a light recoil perspective, the 6.5CM wins by a measurable amount compared to 7mm-08. Relative powder capacity and available bullet weights in the respective calibers make this as close to an absolute as you can get in this world.

I was (and am) speaking in terms of practical performance in reality. For any given bullet weight (120, 130, 140, etc), there is no deer inside 1/4 mile that would ever know the difference between them - a 120 grain 6.5 and a 120 grain 7mm of similar construction, will both produce indistinguishable results - the deer will die, and the wounds will be identical for all practical purposes. So any/all of them are more than "enough gun" as they say. However, you can burn less powder in the 7mm-08 to produce comparable velocities to the 6.5, so if producing the least recoil but still having 'enough jam' to kill deer inside 1/4 mile is our yardstick, the 7mm-08 wins.

Sure, if other parameters are considered, the 6.5 may appear superior in those aspects - we can say that past 1/4 mile, when the velocities of both are starting getting near the edge of the expansion window, then the higher BC of the 6.5 will bear fruit and you can shoot deer from longer range. If we are in danger of not getting sufficient penetration, then the 6.5 should in most cases penetrate better because of the sectional density. Though we could also argue points for things a 7mm-08 will do that a 6.5 won't (larger wound tract, options for heavier/deeper penetrating bullets, etc), but all of that collectively is not relevant to the results we should expect if we shoot a deer at 1/4 mile or less.

I didn't pick ballistic tips or any given bullet weight for any reason other than, 140 (ish) grain is the most commonly used bullet weight in both 6.5 and 7mm-08. You mentioned 120s, so I then used 120 BT's as an example for a 120 grain 7mm bullet that would be good to shoot deer with.

You can of course, get even lighter bullets in a 6.5 than you can in a 7mm-08, but south of 120 grains, both cartridges are shooting varmint and target bullets mostly, so practically speaking, 120 grains is about the floor for hunting bullets (not counting barnes/solids, but I would not hunt with those, so I don't count them).