Pfizer clinical trial data: not good at all

[Mtnboy]

 

[Azone]

Get the shot don't get the shot whatever. BUT, if you believe a good idea is to force it on someone you are nothing less than a POS.

This.

 

[MattB]

Masking people isn't working, the vaccines don't prevent spread or prevent getting the virus so mandates are pointless, including having different rules for the vaccinated and unvaccinated. An unvaccinated person is not a danger to a vaccinated person any more than two vaccinated people together. Fauci has lied consistently through this whole thing and no doubt has little man syndrome and wants to have control. Biden is a moron. The mandates are about control. Most of the "conspiracy" and "misinformation" from one side has now been admitted as truth by the media and even some on the left (see media). A ton of the "misinformation" from the other side (white house, CDC, media, left) has proven false and/or incredibly misleading Note: I did not say all "misinformation' or all "conspiracies". Live a healthy life and don't be a fat slob and the numbers are largely in your favor.

Get the shot don't get the shot whatever. BUT, if you believe a good idea is to force it on someone you are nothing less than a POS.

The unvaccinated do not represent a direct risk in terms of spreading the disease (esp. with Omicron), but it appears that we are once again on the verge of having the unvaccinated overrun our healthcare system and inadvertently blocking others of needed access. People have died and other people probably will die due to the collective impact of those who have made the decision not to get vaccinated.

 

[qwerksc]

Dallas buyers club, Fauci was the hero.

 

[jmez]

Am I wrong in my understanding that the science is very much not settled on masks?
Except for a very well fitting, frequently disposed of N95?

No you are not.

 

[TripleJ]

This is a good (IMHO) podcast that came out today - https://peterattiamd.com/covid-19-current-state-omicron/. Peter Attia interviews two MDs - Marty Makary and Zubin Damania. I expect that everyone who has chimed in on this thread (at least lately) will find something they agree with, and something that conflicts with their views.

Finally got around to listening to this, thank you for the suggestion. It was very well done.

 

[mwebs]

The unvaccinated do not represent a direct risk in terms of spreading the disease (esp. with Omicron), but it appears that we are once again on the verge of having the unvaccinated overrun our healthcare system and inadvertently blocking others of needed access. People have died and other people probably will die due to the collective impact of those who have made the decision not to get vaccinated.

How do you know the vaccine would have prevented them from going to the hospital? Maybe the for profit healthcare system needs to receive some blame here, do you know what ICU bed occupancy was pre pandemic? It’s not like hospitals just build rooms to remain empty so they can loose money, there was an available bed issue before Covid and there will be after, it’s a business decision. To blame people that can’t, are skeptical or don’t need the vaccine for full hospitals is a stupid and tired argument. To base health care decisions on vaccine status is akin to basing it on race, religion, etc.

Show me actual evidence, not media scare articles about people needing care and dying because of hospitals not providing care.

After the pandemic I hope we take a look at people’s choices to be fat, smoke, partake in risky activities like hunt in the mountains and make sure they are at the back of the line for care sense all those are personal choices they made.

 

[Marbles]

Why!?!? Why did you have to do it?!? Why did you feel the need to denigrate Road House? Even in these divisive times, we should all be able to agree that Road House was awesome. If we can't agree on that, then all hope is lost.

I'm sorry, you a right. I was very, very wrong to do that!

My wife asked me what I was smiling at when I read your post. Turns out she has never seen Road House, so we now have our next movie picked out.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Am I wrong in my understanding that the science is very much not settled on masks?
Except for a very well fitting, frequently disposed of N95?

What have you seen or read that indicates ineffectiveness?

Typically what I see touted is that they're not a 100% protection, which is true, but is also not what's been claimed about them. But we can examine the evidence available and see that there's definitely a protective effect.

An evidence review of face masks against COVID-19

The science around the use of masks by the public to impede COVID-19 transmission is advancing rapidly. In this narrative review, we develop an analytical framework to examine mask usage, synthesizing the relevant literature to inform multiple areas: population impact, transmission...

www.pnas.org

This paper is a metareview of the evidence available. They break down differtent types of masks, examine the data ion implementation, mention the concerns involved, and it cites the studies from which data is pulled and comes out strongly in favor of masks, both cotton and N95, as a pandemic protection protocol. For N95s and filtration masks, they are more effective at reducing the chances of infection given good fit, but the cost and need to replace whem whever you remove one to drink, eat, or sweat it through makes them not a great choice for everyone. Cloth masks when worn by everyone reduce the spread by limiting how far your spittle travels when you speak, cough, or sneeze. You should still wash your hands before and after removing or putting your mask on, maintain a larger personal bubble and limit the time you're packed into an enclosed space with larger groups of poor air circulation because it's a layer of protection but not total protection.

I like analogies. Masks are like wearing earpro and eyepro at the range. Won't stop a bullet fired directly at you, won't prevent all hearing damage if you're firing machineguns in an enclosed space, but will keep debris and burning powder out of your eyes if they fit and will reduce or mitigate hearing loss risk to a certain degree.

Typically what I see is that the "they don't work" crowd latches onto "cloth masks don't provide absolute protection against exposure" and extrapolates out to "they don't work" which is sort of like saying that since some people die wearing their seatbelts, seat belts don't work.

 

[roosiebull]

never thought we would see the day of "the vax i got is better than the vax you got!" was an argument on a hunting forum

 

[isItFallYet]

Can someone explain to me what “fully vaccinated” means?

Also, how can you blame unvaccinated-against-covid people, for spreading covid in places where they’re not allowed to go, but “fully vaccinated” people are allowed to go? Vaccine passports that allow you to go somewhere, where you can still get and spread covid, makes no sense to me. It seems more like a reward. But then the same people blame the spread and variants on unvaccinated people?? Explain this to me please.

If people spent as much time and energy on actually proving where the virus came from, maybe it would help persuade people to get these shots. We have a pretty good group consensus on how it got here, according to some poll data (that I don’t care to find a link for). Why isn’t this what we’re all talking about? This is worse than 9/11, or any of the modern wars. IMO, this is why there are conspiracies about the vaccinations.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

How do you know the vaccine would have prevented them from going to the hospital? Maybe the for profit healthcare system needs to receive some blame here, do you know what ICU bed occupancy was pre pandemic? It’s not like hospitals just build rooms to remain empty so they can loose money, there was an available bed issue before Covid and there will be after, it’s a business decision. To blame people that can’t, are skeptical or don’t need the vaccine for full hospitals is a stupid and tired argument. To base health care decisions on vaccine status is akin to basing it on race, religion, etc.

Health care decisions are not like religion or race. You can't change your race, and we wrote it into our laws that we don't want to use the government to incentivize people to change religions. We do want to incentivize people to make good health decisions to mitigate the spread of infectious disease. That's what programs like needle exchanges, public vaccination efforts, and other public health education programs are for.

We do know what ICU bedspace looked like and we cna in fact compare how it looked over the course of the pandemic!

Managing ICU surge during the COVID-19 crisis: rapid guidelines - PMC

Given the rapidly changing nature of COVID-19, clinicians and policy makers require urgent review and summary of the literature, and synthesis of evidence-based guidelines to inform practice. The WHO advocates for rapid reviews in these ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Globally

A Closer Look Into Global Hospital Beds Capacity and Resource Shortages During the COVID-19 Pandemic - PMC

As the COVID-19 pandemic continues, there is a question of whether hospitals have adequate resources to manage patients. We aim to investigate global hospital bed (HB), acute care bed (ACB), and intensive care unit (ICU) bed capacity and determine ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Different journal and researcher, same conclusion!

ICU Bed Utilization During the Coronavirus Disease 2019... : Critical Care Explorations

ease in severe coronavirus disease 2019 cases early during the pandemic. Design: Observational cohort study. Setting: Thirteen geographically dispersed academic medical centers in the United States. Patients/Subjects: We obtained daily ICU censuses from March 26 to June 30, 2020, as well as...

journals.lww.com

We have known since 1918 and before that pandemics wreak havoc on critical care. It's why we have a pandemic response protocol nationally and at all state levels, because we know that it's not just a matter of beds but staffing as well. That portion of the response is referred to as "flattening the curve", a phrase you should remember, and includes efforts to slow the spread until containment, vaccination, and treatment can speed up.

Of course you might be suggesting that we, as a nation, do something to rectify the problems of running our healthcare systems for profit. Maybe we could use tax dollars to fund more excess capacity. Sounds like some commie nonsense though.

 

[Yoder]

No you are not.

It's pretty simple. What is the particle size of the virus? What filter media is being used? The virus is spread by aerosols which are your breath. If the virus in your breath can pass through the filter media being used, you can get covid. If the mask isn't perfectly sealed to your face you can get covid. I wear respirators all the time. If you really want to be "safe" get a cartridge style full face respirator. Get a fit test and check your face seal before you go out. If you're wearing a cotton mask it's like putting up a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out of your yard. Use science and common sense.

 

[MattB]

How do you know the vaccine would have prevented them from going to the hospital? Maybe the for profit healthcare system needs to receive some blame here, do you know what ICU bed occupancy was pre pandemic? It’s not like hospitals just build rooms to remain empty so they can loose money, there was an available bed issue before Covid and there will be after, it’s a business decision. To blame people that can’t, are skeptical or don’t need the vaccine for full hospitals is a stupid and tired argument. To base health care decisions on vaccine status is akin to basing it on race, religion, etc.

Show me actual evidence, not media scare articles about people needing care and dying because of hospitals not providing care.

After the pandemic I hope we take a look at people’s choices to be fat, smoke, partake in risky activities like hunt in the mountains and make sure they are at the back of the line for care sense all those are personal choices they made.

There is a massive amount of data that shows that the vaccines reduce serious disease and death. Honestly, you asking that question demonstrates you have not been paying attention. The stupid and tired argument is that the unvaccinated haven’t periodically over stressed our healthcare system.

And you want proof that people have died due to not being able to get treatment due to COVID patients clogging up the system, but media articles won’t satisfy you? Do you want me to bring those who died’s kin over to your house for coffee?

Veteran dies of treatable illness as COVID fills hospital beds, leaving doctors "playing musical chairs"

The surge in new COVID cases is putting an enormous strain on hospitals, jeopardizing patients who cannot get the medical attention they need because of a lack of space.

www.google.com

Air Force veteran dies waiting for hospital bed; family blames COVID-19

The 80-year-old died after waiting almost a week for a hospital bed, so he could get surgery to repair a mechanical heart valve. Everything was full due to COVID.

www.wagmtv.com

A heart patient died after he couldn't get a cardiac ICU bed in 43 hospitals. Now his family is pleading for people to get vaccinated | CNN

Ray DeMonia wasn't seeking Covid-19 treatment when he arrived at an Alabama hospital. He had already been vaccinated. But the 73-year-old became an indirect victim of Covid-19 patients filling hospitals and ICU beds.

www.google.com

'We called 23 different hospitals': Auburn man dies in Iowa hospital after staff can't find ICU room in Nebraska

A board certified ER doctor said they couldn't find any help in Nebraska two weeks ago when the 57-year-old needed care beyond what the Nemaha County Hospital could provide.

www.ketv.com

COVID-19 Surge: Iowa Man Died Of Sepsis After 15-Day Wait For Bed At Larger Hospital

Retired Iowa school superintendent Dale Weeks’ family believes he was an indirect victim of the COVID-19 pandemic.

www.ibtimes.com

Oklahoma doctors called 40 hospitals to find an ICU bed for a COVID-19 patient with internal bleeding. None of them had space and he died.

Forty hospitals across four states reportedly did not have an available ICU bed for 69-year-old Johnnie Novotny.

www.businessinsider.com

ER doctors say this COVID-19 wave is forcing them to deny treatment to other patients who can die as a result: 'Every shift I'm working these days is like the worst shift in my career'

"This is not the time to be in a motor-vehicle accident because the care that we would love to give you, it is severely hindered," one doctor said.

www.google.com

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Can someone explain to me what “fully vaccinated” means?

Also, how can you blame unvaccinated-against-covid people, for spreading covid in places where they’re not allowed to go, but “fully vaccinated” people are allowed to go? Vaccine passports that allow you to go somewhere, where you can still get and spread covid, makes no sense to me. It seems more like a reward. But then the same people blame the spread and variants on unvaccinated people?? Explain this to me please.

If people spent as much time and energy on actually proving where the virus came from, maybe it would help persuade people to get these shots. We have a pretty good group consensus on how it got here, according to some poll data (that I don’t care to find a link for). Why isn’t this what we’re all talking about? This is worse than 9/11, or any of the modern wars. IMO, this is why there are conspiracies about the vaccinations.

As far as I know we don't have vaccine passports anywhere in the US, so I'm not sure what you're responding to. There have been several busts of people faking vaccine cards or just lying about their vaccination status. there's also two other factors, that immunity (natural and otherwise) wanes and doesn't provide 100% protection, and that the virus mutates faster when it goes through unvaccinated populations. So unvaccinated people who get the virus, even with a mild infection, contribute to spreading and mutating it. Also the number of states without a contact-tracing system makes it more likely that someone will contract and spread the virus. If enough of the population in an area is vaccinated, you can achieve herd immunity, the virus doesn't gain enough of a foothold to spread to the population that cna't be vaccinated, but that number tends to be over 85%. I hope that helps.

"Fully vaccinated" refers to people who have had the full recommended course, either one or two shots based on the specific vaccine.

To head it off, "natural immunity" is not currently relied upon because without drawing titers it's difficult to demonstrate what level of protection someone currently has, there have been some studied underway but it's not like a vaccine research program where you know what date exactly you gave the vaccine and what their titer levels were, that you can track how quickly they degrade. again, with a decent contact tracing program we could have better data.

It strikes me as a bit odd to say there's a poll with a strong consensus about where the virus "came from" but not mention who was polled, the result, or where you found the poll. Last i checked the consensuswas pretty strong that it developed in China, mutating from a wild type strain of SARS.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421009910

A wild virus mutating, or even a lab escape doesn't really seem comparable to 9/11. What do you think is not being done that should?

It's pretty simple. What is the particle size of the virus? What filter media is being used? The virus is spread by aerosols which are your breath. If the virus in your breath can pass through the filter media being used, you can get covid. If the mask isn't perfectly sealed to your face you can get covid. I wear respirators all the time. If you really want to be "safe" get a cartridge style full face respirator. Get a fit test and check your face seal before you go out. If you're wearing a cotton mask it's like putting up a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out of your yard. Use science and common sense.

We should use science! See, it's not the virus particle size that matters, because the virus is riding on fomites and aerosols. That's why the cloth remains effective as a mitigation effort, as illustrated in the scientific research paper I linked above that reviewed the efficacy of masks.

https://imgur.com/bdhYxBa

Science!

 

[KurtR]

 

[jmez]

It's pretty simple. What is the particle size of the virus? What filter media is being used? The virus is spread by aerosols which are your breath. If the virus in your breath can pass through the filter media being used, you can get covid. If the mask isn't perfectly sealed to your face you can get covid. I wear respirators all the time. If you really want to be "safe" get a cartridge style full face respirator. Get a fit test and check your face seal before you go out. If you're wearing a cotton mask it's like putting up a chain link fence to keep mosquitoes out of your yard. Use science and common sense.

What was the CDC's published stance on mask usage prior to about August of 2020? What was the stance of the entire western medical community on mask usage to prevent respiratory disease of the public since forever? What landmark study, with a standardized protocol, has been published in the last 2 years to completely change these recommendations? Not meta analysis, not retrospective studies, not people coughing on a petri dish with and without masks, and not wearing a mask in the winter and watching all the condensation.

In order for the medical community to completely change their policy or stance it used to require a landmark study proving otherwise. So far, that study doesn't exist.

 

[isItFallYet]

As far as I know we don't have vaccine passports anywhere in the US, so I'm not sure what you're responding to. There have been several busts of people faking vaccine cards or just lying about their vaccination status. there's also two other factors, that immunity (natural and otherwise) wanes and doesn't provide 100% protection, and that the virus mutates faster when it goes through unvaccinated populations. So unvaccinated people who get the virus, even with a mild infection, contribute to spreading and mutating it. Also the number of states without a contact-tracing system makes it more likely that someone will contract and spread the virus. If enough of the population in an area is vaccinated, you can achieve herd immunity, the virus doesn't gain enough of a foothold to spread to the population that cna't be vaccinated, but that number tends to be over 85%. I hope that helps.

"Fully vaccinated" refers to people who have had the full recommended course, either one or two shots based on the specific vaccine.

To head it off, "natural immunity" is not currently relied upon because without drawing titers it's difficult to demonstrate what level of protection someone currently has, there have been some studied underway but it's not like a vaccine research program where you know what date exactly you gave the vaccine and what their titer levels were, that you can track how quickly they degrade. again, with a decent contact tracing program we could have better data.

It strikes me as a bit odd to say there's a poll with a strong consensus about where the virus "came from" but not mention who was polled, the result, or where you found the poll. Last i checked the consensuswas pretty strong that it developed in China, mutating from a wild type strain of SARS.

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0092867421009910

A wild virus mutating, or even a lab escape doesn't really seem comparable to 9/11. What do you think is not being done that should?



We should use science! See, it's not the virus particle size that matters, because the virus is riding on fomites and aerosols. That's why the cloth remains effective as a mitigation effort, as illustrated in the scientific research paper I linked above that reviewed the efficacy of masks.

https://imgur.com/bdhYxBa

Science!

I'm not going to write a book, but speaking of misinformation:

Seems like there's a whole lot of "breakthrough cases". (90% or higher)

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

web.archive.org

"A vaccine passport is some sort of documentation that proves an individual has received the required vaccination to engage in an activity, whether it be traveling or attending an event."
I didn't say "digital vaccine passport" I said vaccine passport.

A New Normal: The Reality of Vaccine Passports

In the last two years, the COVID-19 pandemic has forced the world to quickly adapt to a new way of life. From face masks to social distancing, the pandemic has undoubtedly changed the way we live. To ensure the safety of travelers, some governments and organizations are now implementing digital...

www.natlawreview.com

COVID-19: Vaccine Key to NYC - NYC Health

www1.nyc.gov

We can both agree that the virus came from China.

Did covid-19 come from a lab? - PMC

Could the coronavirus have sprung from a lab or did it pass to humans from an animal? The evidence is out there, but it could be difficult to locate, says Graham Lawton

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Letter confirms Wuhan lab’s COVID-19 leak was funded by US taxpayers

A letter from the National Institutes of Health, who are led by Anthony Fauci, suggests COVID-19 was man-made from multiple varients of coronavirus — all on the US taxpayer’s dime, Dr. Joel Z…

nypost.com

 

[isItFallYet]

A wild virus mutating, or even a lab escape doesn't really seem comparable to 9/11. What do you think is not being done that should?

I'm talking about death counts. If this was in fact man made, those responsible for the deaths of millions should be held accountable. IMO, it is very comparable.

 

[camping1601]

Sounds like we could free up some room for covid patients by limiting care to all those Fentanyl users.