Pfizer clinical trial data: not good at all

[Actual_Cryptid]

I’m hearing it on podcasts, YouTube videos, and some from the main stream news. As well as just word of mouth from friends. I’m not claiming I’m correct, I’m just trying to gather information from every source I can. I’m not telling people not to get vaccinated, nor am I telling people to get vaccinated. I’m trying to figure it out for myself. I’m always interested to hear where our health professionals get their information from. They are the ones we are supposed to trust. When I hear a Doctor openly say it is safe and that they try to encourage everyone they know to take it, and that Doctor has seen data to prove that, I am very interested in that source. As should everyone who is taking medications. I think the deaths associated with the vaccine might be on the actual cdc website as well.

It seems a little strange to me that you would hear that there's been 20,000 deaths and that no medication was ever allowed on the market with even 100 deaths, but that you wouldn't try to verify that kind of claim for yourself.

It sounds like the podcasts and YouTube videos you're hearing the 20,000 number from are misrepresenting what VAERS data is. VAERS is a collection system that tracks any adverse health event after a vaccination. It does not state or claim any causal link between a vaccination (any vaccination, not just COVID vaccines) and the event. There are VAERS reports that report a child's self-inflicted gunshot wound or a car accident injury after vaccination, because the purpose of VAERS is that everything gets reported and the data gets analyzed after the fact. Grifters have been using VAERS to lie about vaccines for a couple decades now.

I personally find it curious that you heard about this outrageous stuff from YouTube videos and podcasts, vaccine manufacturers admitting to 20,000 deaths caused by their vaccines, and then didn't try to verify such a groundbreaking claim on your own. It's a fairly easy thing to examine I reckon, as I was able to pretty quickly figure out how you were lied to and the debunking of that lie is certainly not new.

The efforts of antivaxxers to portray COVID-19 vaccines as harmful or even deadly continue apace (VAERS edition)

With the rollout of COVID-19 vaccines continuing apace, so are the efforts of antivaxxers to portray the vaccines as dangerous. This time around, they've resurrected the old antivaccine trick of decep

sciencebasedmedicine.org

It's such an old tune that folks like Dr. Gorski have been addressing it for more than a year for the covid vaccines specifically. I remember the same song and dance from the antivax people back in the 2000s, like the article below debunking the misuse of VAERS data in 2009:

Swine Flu Vaccine Fearmongering

Fear is a curious thing. It often bears no relation to the actual risk of what we fear. When swine flu first broke out in Mexico, people were understandably afraid. Travel was restricted, schools

sciencebasedmedicine.org

Let me sidebar, the cat woke me up early this morning by dancing on my head so I'm a little cranky. I hate that YouTube, podcasts, and even moreso Facebook videos and TikTok are short-circuiting our fact-checking abilities. I was having this conversation with friends in 2014 or so, I started noticing the trend of YouTube videos that would just throw a bunch of claims out there and build a narrative, usually with quick cuts and partial quotes. It's very convincing if you're already inclined to listen, and the odds that anyone is going to pause the video, look up what was claimed and try to assess how true a particular claim is are extremely low. Guys like Paul Joseph Watson made their career off doing that, the Food Babe made a (thankfully brief) career out of it, and it's been the core function of my personal frenemy Alex Jones for his whole career. Do a 4 hour show, nobody can possibly check everything you say, especially if they're listening while they're driving (guilty!) or at work. Even a 10 minute video takes much longer to go through, I think it was back in 2015 my sister sent me a 15 minute video and it took 2 hours to run down each headline he showed briefly, read the article, research a bit deeper, and then pull together the facts to demonstrate why he was lying. Could have been longer if the presenter was a faster talker. But now you can do a 2hr podcast where it's even harder, there's no screenshots to check and you can't rewind as precisely (that 15sec skip makes it choppy). TikTok goes the opposite way, throw out a whole plate of spaghetti in 30 seconds while someone is pooping, they're not gonna spend 30 minutes checking what you said in a 30 second video. It's not a left or right issue, it's a "it's profitable for people to say outrageous things that get clicks and get shared" problem, and it drives me up a wall.

Ugh. Maybe some eggs and venison will rescue this morning from it's inauspicious start.

 

[ramsdude47]

There have been a total of 9 deaths casually associated with the J/J vaccine. I don't explicitly know what "casually associated" means, but the 20,000 # thrown out is simply absurd.

As are over half the takes on this thread, and any COVID thread on the internet. The results are phenominal with both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, and it is not a difficult subject to research and find quality information on.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination

Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

www.cdc.gov

 

[Yoder]

Another thing that has people concerned about the vaccine is the number of serious problems and deaths compared to other vaccines. It's really difficult to tell what the actual numbers are since social media, pharmaceutical companies the medical community and the government are all covering this up as much as possible. Looking at vaers It's at least 300x more deaths than flu vaccine. I know vaers is anecdotal but say it's 50x higher. That shows me this wasn't tested enough. It's still extremely safe but nobody is questioning why these vaccines are causing more problems which is wrong. It's hard to trust anything these days. I see the media screaming about Omicron hospitalizations. I looked it up. 21% of ICU patients nationwide are covid positive. 12% of inpatient beds covid positive. That is hospitalized with covid not necessarily from covid. Shouldn't it be more like 80-90% if this was a real problem? Odds are you will be totally fine whether you are vaccinated or not or if you get covid. This is never going away. Everyone on this planet is getting covid. People need to stop worrying about it, stop wearing your scientifically proven useless masks and get back to living life.

 

[KurtR]

There have been a total of 9 deaths casually associated with the J/J vaccine. I don't explicitly know what "casually associated" means, but the 20,000 # thrown out is simply absurd.

As are over half the takes on this thread, and any COVID thread on the internet. The results are phenominal with both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, and it is not a difficult subject to research and find quality information on.

Selected Adverse Events Reported after COVID-19 Vaccination

Rare instances of adverse events following COVID-19 vaccinations have been reported to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System.

www.cdc.gov

Our definition of phenomenal must be different. I would expect 99 percent wouldn’t get it after the vaccine but that’s just the survival rate with or with out it.

The govt cares nothing about our health and about making money.

 

[MallardSX2]

I'll take my chances with the virus. Already got it and recovered. It wasn't fun. But it wasn't the end of earth kind of sickness.

Vaccination nazi's will likely be hiding their own Easter eggs in 10 years....

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Another thing that has people concerned about the vaccine is the number of serious problems and deaths compared to other vaccines. It's really difficult to tell what the actual numbers are since social media, pharmaceutical companies the medical community and the government are all covering this up as much as possible. Looking at vaers It's at least 300x more deaths than flu vaccine. I know vaers is anecdotal but say it's 50x higher. That shows me this wasn't tested enough. It's still extremely safe but nobody is questioning why these vaccines are causing more problems which is wrong. It's hard to trust anything these days. I see the media screaming about Omicron hospitalizations. I looked it up. 21% of ICU patients nationwide are covid positive. 12% of inpatient beds covid positive. That is hospitalized with covid not necessarily from covid. Shouldn't it be more like 80-90% if this was a real problem? Odds are you will be totally fine whether you are vaccinated or not or if you get covid. This is never going away. Everyone on this planet is getting covid. People need to stop worrying about it, stop wearing your scientifically proven useless masks and get back to living life.

VAERS isn't just anecdotal, it doesn't say anything about causation. A VAERS report doesn't attribute the adverse event to the vaccine, it reports the event expressly so that both the CDC and independent third parties can all review the data and look for evidence, just in case anything crops up that wasn't caught in the initial testing. Its primary use is refining the understanding of risk factors, but it very intentionally does not require an autopsy, death report, or any kind of expert opinion as to cause.

Then there's the world's most obvious confounding factor. Who was the first demographic in line for vaccines when they became available? High-risk patients, such as the elderly or immunocompromised. And look, I know everyone knows that, because we've been hearing from the "just a flu" people that if you're not old and obese you're not at risk, but for some reason those criteria go right out the window the second it's time to lie about vaccines again, and suddenly it's total deaths and not percentage or comobidities or cause of death that matters.

So then if someone is claiming the COVID vaccines (again, three of them, with two very different mechanisms of action) have lethal side effects 300 times more often than the flu vaccine (which also is not a single vaccine either, but usually several vaccines at once that are developed based on early surveillance), that requires some evidence. "Total deaths reported through VAERS" is not that.

Our definition of phenomenal must be different. I would expect 99 percent wouldn’t get it after the vaccine but that’s just the survival rate with or with out it.

The govt cares nothing about our health and about making money.

Your expectation is miscalibrated then. No vaccine has a 99% prevention rate. You're also mistaken about the survival rate with and without being the same, and you've done the ever present thing of ignoring any post-infection effects (long covid, permanent damage, temporary illness, hospitalization) for which the outcomes heavily favor the vaccinated.

 

[Yoder]

I seen a lot of people here trashing "antivax" doctors. Here's a group of doctors I first heard about on Joe Rogan Episode 1671:

Home

FLCCC is The Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance: Dedicated to COVID prevention & treatment, empowering individuals for better health.

covid19criticalcare.com

Doctor Pierre Kory talked about Ivermectin and other alternatives to try to prevent and treat covid. He NEVER said "Don't get vaccinated". In fact he recommended it. His main focus was people who couldn't get vaccinated due to medical issues or it just wasn't available. Whether you believe Ivermectin is useful or not, many countries are using it with good results. It's not horse de-wormer like CNN accused Joe Rogan. It's been studied for a long time to treat viruses along with being used for parasites. Typical arguments:

"It's not FDA approved to treat covid." Neither were the vaccines.

"Antivax doctors are just spreading misinformation to make money. " They recommended vaccination. Also aren't politicians and corporations making Billions off of vaccines? Do you actually trust the government?

I have Ivermectin. Not from Tractor Supply either. My wife had covid and was pretty sick. Symptoms were worse than the flu but not too scary. She finally took some Ivermectin and the next morning she was about 50% better. I took it as soon as she showed symptoms and I never got sick. Did it work? I have no idea. Could be coincidence, but it sure didn't hurt. Why is the medical community so against trying a treatment that has zero side effects, has been prescribed Billions of times and could help?

There's no money in it so it's been banned.

I'm not antivax. I always thought older people and others who were at risk should get it. If you're under 18 I think it's completely insane. About 800 kids under 18 have died with covid out of 71 million people. .0011% of the total population of children. That's with covid not from it. Anywhere in the middle you should weigh your options and decide.

 

[Newtosavage]

Pretty damn sad when politically motivated misinformation campaigns make their way on to hunting forums.

 

[Sandstrom]

What drives me crazy is we are two years into this and there is still no information from big pharma or any of the government health agencies of what to do IF YOU GET COVID (lately they have approved monocronial antibodies) other than wait till you are bad enough then go to the hospital!!! It is the most insane thing I have ever seen!! They have spent countless dollars pushing masks and vaxs, and none on what to do if you get it!!!!!

What is even worse is the fact that we are only getting “approved” information.

Ryan

 

[blackdawg]

I do not have real statistics just guesstimates so let me preface this by saying that.

The major complications from COVID that have required interventions at our institution have been the obvious, need for prolonged ventilation and supplementation/nutrition so they end up getting a tracheostomy and a PEG/feeding tube. Not a direct cause of COVID but and indirect result. The other, and a more a direct result of COVID is arterial clotting. Many patients who clotted off their arteries from the bifurcation of the aorta all the way down to their toes. Clotting of the mesentery which causes bowel is ischemia. And lastly, the pregnant mother who clotted off her artery to her placenta which has caused either intrauterine death of the fetus or premature labor.

As far as demographics go it depends on which wave of COVID we are referencing.

The first wave of COVID before a vaccine it was typically 55-100 yo patients the majority having at least one comorbidity. Obesity, BMI over 30, being the most prevalent. Males wee likely more common than females but I can’t say for certain.

Delta variant was 99% unvaccinated mainly 20s-50s. All patients were obese. Once again, likely more male than female but no specific numbers to confirm.

Obesity was the number one comorbidity. Not only for the needing to have surgery but if you needed a ventilator in the ICU. If you are obese……you appear to be the most at risk.

Thank you. I


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[260madman]

Billions in fines for fraud with medicine and treatment and they want you to get an untested vaccine with no long term data AND big pharma is off the hook for liability. Let’s not forget that you’re still getting a vaxx produced under the EUA and not one dose has been produced as the dose that was approved by the FDA. Still no liability on their end and they will do this forever as long as they aren’t liable.

They need 75 years to go through the records and data if someone does a FOIA on this stuff but somehow went through all the information to approve the woke poke in just a few months. Seems legit. Probably used the same “fact checkers” sitting in a bean bag chair with Cheetos stained underwear that social media and the news uses.

Remember, Chantix helps you stop smoking. Now all these years later they admit it gives you cancer and pulled it. They had been chalking it up to former smokers getting cancer because they smoked.

 

[fwafwow]

VAERS isn't just anecdotal, it doesn't say anything about causation. A VAERS report doesn't attribute the adverse event to the vaccine, it reports the event expressly so that both the CDC and independent third parties can all review the data and look for evidence, just in case anything crops up that wasn't caught in the initial testing. Its primary use is refining the understanding of risk factors, but it very intentionally does not require an autopsy, death report, or any kind of expert opinion as to cause.

Then there's the world's most obvious confounding factor. Who was the first demographic in line for vaccines when they became available? High-risk patients, such as the elderly or immunocompromised. And look, I know everyone knows that, because we've been hearing from the "just a flu" people that if you're not old and obese you're not at risk, but for some reason those criteria go right out the window the second it's time to lie about vaccines again, and suddenly it's total deaths and not percentage or comobidities or cause of death that matters.

So then if someone is claiming the COVID vaccines (again, three of them, with two very different mechanisms of action) have lethal side effects 300 times more often than the flu vaccine (which also is not a single vaccine either, but usually several vaccines at once that are developed based on early surveillance), that requires some evidence. "Total deaths reported through VAERS" is not that.

I have not yet spent any time reviewing VAERS, for these or any other vaccines, so this is an honest question. Is there any source (VAERS or otherwise) that normalizes or otherwise provides information to compare (a) events within the particular vaccine, and (b) events across vaccines? As an example of (a), does the current data collection include comorbidities, age, etc. so that even laypeople can isolate the total events by said categories? And as an example of (b), does it compare the number of people who have gotten each vaccine and then report events by percentages? I personally would assume (!) that the C-19 vaccines have been given to more people than the flu vaccine (at least in the same time period), which if true, might mean comparing the two vacclnes based on total events is questionable. At the same time, I would also assume that the flu vaccine is most often given to those who are older or otherwise more at risk, so perhaps all else equal, flu events might not be comparable to the C-19 (I would anticipate there should be more flu events by percentage), unless you segregate both with the same patient characteristics.

I'm not questioning or arguing about anything in your post.

 

[FLATHEAD]

I'm doing my best to stay off ALL Meds.
Currently 55 y/o and not taking anything.
20 years back had a mis diagnosis and prescription for it.
Was feeling horrible, like a dying kind of horrible.
Thinking this disease is going to kill me.
Till I got to reading the side effects of the medicine.
Threw it in the garbage and never looked back.
Told the Dr., and he flipped out. Said I "had to take the meds".
I walked out of the office.
Changed my whole perspective of medicine.
I'm not anti vacc/meds, but very cautious.
Meds can be deadly.

 

[fwafwow]

A group of family members were teasing me at Thanksgiving about getting the vaccination, especially since I had Covid before (including some symptoms that lasted for months). They made the points about the desire for longer term information on the possible side effects of the vaccine, and the that Big Pharma may (does?) not have the best of intentions. I said "I agree with those concerns. But are any of you on a statin?" Several said "yes," but none of them had ever been told, or investigated the drug. I'm not trying to isolate statins in particular, and I'm not arguing for the vax, but as @FLATHEAD and others have pointed out, there are plenty of things that some of us take (or eat), in some cases without having given the same amount of thinking to the benefits and drawbacks.

 

[Yoder]

Pretty damn sad when politically motivated misinformation campaigns make their way on to hunting forums.

Which one?

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

I seen a lot of people here trashing "antivax" doctors. Here's a group of doctors I first heard about on Joe Rogan Episode 1671:

Home

FLCCC is The Frontline COVID-19 Critical Care Alliance: Dedicated to COVID prevention & treatment, empowering individuals for better health.

covid19criticalcare.com

Doctor Pierre Kory talked about Ivermectin and other alternatives to try to prevent and treat covid. He NEVER said "Don't get vaccinated". In fact he recommended it. His main focus was people who couldn't get vaccinated due to medical issues or it just wasn't available. Whether you believe Ivermectin is useful or not, many countries are using it with good results. It's not horse de-wormer like CNN accused Joe Rogan. It's been studied for a long time to treat viruses along with being used for parasites. Typical arguments:

"It's not FDA approved to treat covid." Neither were the vaccines.

"Antivax doctors are just spreading misinformation to make money. " They recommended vaccination. Also aren't politicians and corporations making Billions off of vaccines? Do you actually trust the government?

I have Ivermectin. Not from Tractor Supply either. My wife had covid and was pretty sick. Symptoms were worse than the flu but not too scary. She finally took some Ivermectin and the next morning she was about 50% better. I took it as soon as she showed symptoms and I never got sick. Did it work? I have no idea. Could be coincidence, but it sure didn't hurt. Why is the medical community so against trying a treatment that has zero side effects, has been prescribed Billions of times and could help?

There's no money in it so it's been banned.

I'm not antivax. I always thought older people and others who were at risk should get it. If you're under 18 I think it's completely insane. About 800 kids under 18 have died with covid out of 71 million people. .0011% of the total population of children. That's with covid not from it. Anywhere in the middle you should weigh your options and decide.

So letys run through a couple things first. There's a type of statement that cna be made which implies soemthign without saying it. For example "has been studied for a long time to treat viruses" doesn't actually say anything about it's efficacy as an antiviral. "Many countries are using it with good results" is incredibly nonspecific as well. Which countries, how is it being used, and what are the results. Of course, we can examine what the actual evidence is:

Ivermectin is the new hydroxychloroquine, take 2

A few months ago, Scott Gavura wrote about how the veterinary deworming drug ivermectin has become the new hydroxychloroquine in that it is being promoted as a highly effective treatment against COVID

sciencebasedmedicine.org

The best evidence is inconclusive, the studies that get trotted out by Kory and his affiliates at the FLCCC ar typically preprints and several have been retracted or modified. This is a pretty far cry from Kory's claim that it had "miraculous results" against COVID.

The vaccines were reviewed for safety and efficacy and granted an emergency use authorization based on those reviews. Again, ivermectin (like hydroxychloriquine before it) has not shown enough efficacy to reach even that standard. The FLCCC claims it accelerates the viral load, which has not been demonstrated.

it does not have "no side effects." You can look at the FDA's page or the manufacturer's page for side effects. A brief list includes confusion, loss of control over body movement ("ataxia"), weakness, low blood pressure, seizures, gastrointestinal distress, dizziness, vision symptoms or rash (taken from Merck documents pre-dating the pandemic.) The cost, side-effects, and lack of evidence is why the medical community is against prescribing it. Not to mention, it has legitimate uses as an antiparasitic and as a treatment for some forms of lupus, so prescribing it unecessarily runs the risk of impacting supply for patients who do need it. There is plenty of money in it, it's not banned, it's just not effective.

I think it's also worth mentioning two things. First, despite the claims that they're not anti-vaccine, the FLCCC does not include vaccination in their recommendation. You have to go to their |Website Disclaimers page to see the following:

Public Health Notice

The Ivermectin/Mask+ Protocol is not a substitute for preventive measures. Patients using the preventive protocols should follow all measures recommended by public health authorities, including social distancing, masking and vaccinations as appropriate.

So I see a fundamental contradiction here. Why would they develop a prevention protocol that doesn't include vaccination, if their public health disclaimer includes masking, vaccination, andsocial distancing, and why bury this on a page I would wager is not reviewed by the overwhelming majority of their users?n Has anyone else here read their disclaimer page previously?

Then there's this one:

FDA Notice

The dietary ingredients discussed are not intended for use by consumers to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. The information contained on this Website has not been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration.

Huh. So their preventative protocol that includes several vitamin megadoses is not intended to prevent any disease? Or the treatment protocol which also includes vitamin megadoses, but according to this those recommended supplements must also not be intended to treat any disease either? Hmm. Seems fishy to me. Well at least they're a nonprofit and they're not financially benefitting from this right?
Affiliates

FLCCC may promote, market, affiliate with, or partner with other individuals or businesses in exchange for affiliate commission or financial compensation. We only recommend products or services we use personally or for our patients and believe will add value to our visitors. You agree that any such promotion or marketing does not serve as an endorsement. You are still required to use your own judgment to determine that any such program, product or service is appropriate for you. You are accessing this affiliate program, product or service at your own risk. You agree that we are not liable in contract, tort or any other cause of action for any program, product or service that we may promote, market, share or sell on or through this Website.

Oh wow hang on a second the FLCCC may partner with other businesses in exchange for financial compensation? I took a quick peek around and I don't see what those partnerships are anywhere. There's nothing to indicate what they're promoting or partnering with in exchange for money. For people who claim there's no money to be made they seem to be admitting that there is a money-making avenue but not very clear about what or how much.

What drives me crazy is we are two years into this and there is still no information from big pharma or any of the government health agencies of what to do IF YOU GET COVID (lately they have approved monocronial antibodies) other than wait till you are bad enough then go to the hospital!!! It is the most insane thing I have ever seen!! They have spent countless dollars pushing masks and vaxs, and none on what to do if you get it!!!!!

What is even worse is the fact that we are only getting “approved” information.

Ryan

The CDC has an entire page about what to do if you do get sick. It's essentially the same as the recommendations for every infectious respiratory disease: isolate, hydrate, rest, and monitor your symptoms. That's all you need for mild cases. Stuff like megadosing vitamins doesn't do anything (https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/th...min-c-on-the-duration-of-covid-19-infections/). Zinc and vitamin supplements have never been illustrated to have an effect on the severity of respiratory illness in clinical trials, which is why they remain in the "not intended to treat or prevent" category of supplements. Monoclonal antibodies are reserved for higher risk patients, because the side-effects of MAb are worse than a mild case of covid.

COVID-19 and Your Health

Symptoms, testing, what to do if sick, daily activities, and more.

www.cdc.gov

 

[IdahoElk]

Trust that Fauci and Gates are telling us the truth? Ha!

I watched about 10 yrs ago Gates giving Ted talks saying how we need to depopulate the planet and his dad was a board member of planned parenthood.
Look up " the real Anthony Fauci" by RFK Jr.
Both Covid figureheads Fauci and Gates have an agenda and saving the world isn't it.

 

[Yoder]

I don't understand how people think Fauci is a reliable source but Dr Kory is some kook trying to profit off covid. Both are making a lot of money and both have questionable motivation. Who's lying? I can find a hundred "credible sources" to prove both are correct. Maybe I'm crazy but I don't trust the government. Also the side effects from Ivermectin are extremely rare. It's an over the counter drug in many countries. It's been prescribed literally billions of times for decades. The cost is $1/pill. There is no downside. I don't know if it works but I think it's better than waiting until you are ready to die then going to the hospital.

 

[Newtosavage]

Clearly it doesn't cost anyone anything to be a skeptic and conspiracy theorist.

 

[ODB]

Clearly it doesn't cost anyone anything to be a skeptic and conspiracy theorist.

Those two are not fungible.