Pfizer clinical trial data: not good at all

[fwafwow]

Dr Z is a good dude and mostly neutral. He used to work in CA, I know a couple people that know him and say he's a good one.

Thanks. I like what they cover in this podcast, in part because it's not one-sided (they question the level of evidence on Vitamin D deficiency and the efficacy of some of the proffered therapeutics, but they also go into a discussion of the cost/benefit analysis of the vaccines and lockdowns), and at least one of them in the podcast said "I was wrong" in how he handled things in the past. On these RS C-19 threads our more frequent position is often wrong but never in doubt. To that point - if someone has any information on any of these three MDs that would call into question their motivations, or info that what they say in this podcast is debatable, I'm open to hearing it.

 

[lif]

The Pfizer vaccine gained full approval already.

FDA Approves First COVID-19 Vaccine

FDA approved the first COVID-19 vaccine, now marketed as Comirnaty, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.

www.fda.gov

Moderna and Janssen were still awaiting full approval, last I read they were expecting it by the end of 1Q22.

Again. I’m not trying to argue with you. I have stated many times that I don’t have accurate answers. I’m not baiting you. I’m looking for facts. It looks like Pfizer vaccine has been approved for people 16 and older. So partial approval depending on your age. That’s a piece of info that appears to be a fact. My biggest concern is the data that proves it’s safe. I’m sure it exists somewhere.

 

[AKBC]

I read something yesterday that made sense to me. The "vaccines" aren't really vaccines because they no longer provide immunity against catching Covid (Google the definition of a vaccine) and are more accurately referred to as "treatment."

I have a feeling "science" will eventually adopt this nomenclature.

 

[TripleJ]

For what this is worth, Reuters looked into the soccer player angle and did not find any link to the COVID vaccines.

Fact Check-No evidence COVID-19 vaccines are linked to athletes collapsing or dying from myocarditis

There is no evidence currently that COVID-19 vaccines are linked to an increase in sportspeople collapsing or dying due to heart issues such as myocarditis.

www.reuters.com

On the flip side, I have read of a few instances where pro athletes who had COVID-19 missed significant time due to myocarditis that resulted from the disease.

Josh Archibald and Alex Stalock got myocarditis after a virus infection

Tippett: “He had a severe viral infection coming out of his quarantine"

www.sportworldnews.org

Jaguars RB Ryquell Armstead developed myocarditis after having COVID-19 - Sports Illustrated

The Jacksonville running back spent the entire 2020 campaign on the COVID-19 list after testing positive in August.

www.si.com

FWIW, the former CEO of Rueters is also on the board of Pfizer. I'm not claiming anything beyond that, and I'm not a tin foil hat guy, but it's something to consider. You don't have to look very far to find ample data that pharma companies will skew, cover up, and straight up lie about data if they can make a buck. Myocarditis is a known symptom of both C-19 and the vaccines, based on Israeli data, especially in young men. Whether or not the substantial increase of (vaccinated) soccer players dropping dead in the last year is a coincidence or not, we will probably never know. I am not anti-vaccine. I, my wife, and my 3 older boys got vaccinated. I just like to make well informed decisions, and it can be super hard to get non-biased info anymore, from either side. The data overwhelmingly says the shots were good for a huge majority of people, to avoid serious sickness and hospitalization. That is undeniable. But it's not a binary thing. The shots have been bad for a small minority of people, which turns into pretty big numbers when you consider how many people have been vaxxed. When a family friend, a healthy mid 40's mother of 4 has a stroke, it makes you wonder. She is now walking with a walker. As a teacher in this state, the vax was mandated for her. I also know of a friend's grandmother that went into a coma after her 2nd shot and died the next week. And another friend's dad, albeit a cancer survivor, who died of heart failure the day after his booster. These are all anecdotal, and not necessarily causal, but they are situations that make me think. In all honesty, I feel like vaccine injuries are probably more common than we are being led to believe by those in charge, but I don't have the data to back that claim up.

 

[Scoot]

My biggest concern is the data that proves it’s safe. I’m sure it exists somewhere.

No data and no amount of data will "prove it's safe". Data/Research don't "prove" things- they support or don't support them. Things that were "proven" in the past have been found to be incorrect, or at least incomplete, many, many times in all fields of science. "Proof" is too definitive and if you really need it, you'll be disappointed.

People tend to absolutely hate the info above. Most folks want a black and white answer that is crystal clear, but unfortunately that's not how research works.

 

[MattB]

I read something yesterday that made sense to me. The "vaccines" aren't really vaccines because they no longer provide immunity against catching Covid (Google the definition of a vaccine) and are more accurately referred to as "treatment."

I have a feeling "science" will eventually adopt this nomenclature.

That isn't true in the least for a variety of reasons. Vaccines are designed to cause your body to generate an immune response. The COVID vaccines do exactly that. The issues are 2: the virus has mutated from the original strain and immunity from corona viruses tend to be short-lived (hence the need for boosters).

Vaccines are generally developed to protect against disease rather than from becoming infected, so becoming COVID positive is not an indication the vaccines do not work.

 

[AKBC]

That isn't true in the least for a variety of reasons. Vaccines are designed to cause your body to generate an immune response. The COVID vaccines do exactly that. The issues are 2: the virus has mutated from the original strain and immunity from corona viruses tend to be short-lived (hence the need for boosters).

Vaccines are generally developed to protect against disease rather than from becoming infected, so becoming COVID positive is not an indication the vaccines do not work.

I am not arguing the "vaccines" aren't working. I am merely of the opinion that they are more accurately referred to as Covid treatment.

 

[MattB]

FWIW, the CEO of Rueters is also on the board of Pfizer.

That isn't true. Thomas Reuters' CEO is Steve Hasker.

Executive team

Thomson Reuters, led by President and Chief Executive Officer Steve Hasker, is the world's leading source of intelligent information for businesses and professionals.

www.thomsonreuters.com

You will not find Hasker's name on the list of Pfizer's directors:

Meet Pfizer's Board Members | Pfizer

Learn more about Pfizer's Board Members, the diverse group of people responsible for steering the company and shaping the future of the organization.

www.pfizer.com

What is true is that the FORMER Thomas Reuters CEO James Smith is on the Pfizer board. Smith remains the Chairman of the Thomson Reuters Foundation, which is a philanthropy affiliated with Thomson Reuters.

James Smith | Pfizer

www.pfizer.com

 

[MattB]

I am not arguing the "vaccines" aren't working. I am merely of the opinion that they are more accurately referred to as Covid treatment.

That is false.

 

[Hoodie]

I am not arguing the "vaccines" aren't working. I am merely of the opinion that they are more accurately referred to as Covid treatment.

They aren't. Treatment would refer to interventions applied after someone has a disease. Monoclonal antibodies are a treatment.

The vaccine is a...vaccine. A person can think whatever they want about it's efficacy/safety/likelihood of containing nanobots, but that's a separate discussion.

 

[S.Clancy]

I read something yesterday that made sense to me. The "vaccines" aren't really vaccines because they no longer provide immunity against catching Covid (Google the definition of a vaccine) and are more accurately referred to as "treatment."

I have a feeling "science" will eventually adopt this nomenclature.

The vaccine prevents infection to a certain degree, but not enough to matter. Flu vaccine is similar.

 

[TripleJ]

That isn't true. Thomas Reuters' CEO is Steve Hasker.

Executive team

Thomson Reuters, led by President and Chief Executive Officer Steve Hasker, is the world's leading source of intelligent information for businesses and professionals.

www.thomsonreuters.com

You will not find Hasker's name on the list of Pfizer's directors:

Meet Pfizer's Board Members | Pfizer

Learn more about Pfizer's Board Members, the diverse group of people responsible for steering the company and shaping the future of the organization.

www.pfizer.com

What is true is that the FORMER Thomas Reuters CEO James Smith is on the Pfizer board. Smith remains the Chairman of the Thomson Reuters Foundation, which is a philanthropy affiliated with Thomson Reuters.

James Smith | Pfizer

www.pfizer.com

I stand corrected. I had looked it up, and the way it was worded on Wikipedia came across as both Smith and Hasker were on the board. I fixed my original post.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Again. I’m not trying to argue with you. I have stated many times that I don’t have accurate answers. I’m not baiting you. I’m looking for facts. It looks like Pfizer vaccine has been approved for people 16 and older. So partial approval depending on your age. That’s a piece of info that appears to be a fact. My biggest concern is the data that proves it’s safe. I’m sure it exists somewhere.

What data are you looking for that proves it's safe? Describe for me what information that would contain and how it would be presented? Maybe it would help if you gave an example of the sort of data you're looking for for any other treatment, intervention, vaccine, anything like that?

 

[MattB]

I stand corrected. I had looked it up, and the way it was worded on Wikipedia came across as both Smith and Hasker were on the board. I fixed my original post.

To be fair, the article I found the reference in was misleading. It referenced Smith as head of the "corporate arm of the company" which suggests the commercial, for-profit entity and not the affiliated non-profit. In my career I worked with a lot of public companies and their affiliated foundations, so I am familiar with the construct/vernacular whereas many people wouldn't.

 

[lif]

What data are you looking for that proves it's safe? Describe for me what information that would contain and how it would be presented? Maybe it would help if you gave an example of the sort of data you're looking for for any other treatment, intervention, vaccine, anything like that?

Are there thresholds for reactions and or deaths for meds being approved by the FDA? Since this is a new process being used in this vaccine I would expect some sort of accurate data that shows people are not dying or getting sick from the vaccine as time is passing. In my personal life I know of two people who died of Covid after being vaccinated and 3 people who were hospitalized after getting the vaccine. One with Myocarditis and two with strokes. All 3 hospitalized within 12 days of getting vaccinated. Now, when I see that with my own two eyes in the small world that I live in I get to wondering how do I know it’s safe. I know if I take Advil at the recommended dose it is close to 100% safe. I know if I get a tetanus, or small pox, or measles shot I won’t catch the disease. There is lots of history and open data to support those assumptions, as well as anecdotal evidence from personal experiences. I know for a fact that the original numbers that have been reported on infections and deaths of the disease were definitively inaccurate. Again, my wife and several members of my family are in medical fields. So my best guess is that somewhere, that my dumbass can’t find, there are somewhat accurate numbers on current deaths and adverse reactions linked to the vaccine. If there isn’t somewhat accurate numbers, then we are either being experimented on with the vaccine or lied to about true risks that are involved. And too reiterate, I’m not here to argue, I’m hoping someone can help me find some convincing data on the risks of the vaccine based on the current usage. If you can’t help me with that then that is ok too. I’m not looking for a debate, I’m looking for thorough and accurate information that we can all use. That is all.

 

[fwafwow]

Are there thresholds for reactions and or deaths for meds being approved by the FDA? Since this is a new process being used in this vaccine I would expect some sort of accurate data that shows people are not dying or getting sick from the vaccine as time is passing. In my personal life I know of two people who died of Covid after being vaccinated and 3 people who were hospitalized after getting the vaccine. One with Myocarditis and two with strokes. All 3 hospitalized within 12 days of getting vaccinated. Now, when I see that with my own two eyes in the small world that I live in I get to wondering how do I know it’s safe. I know if I take Advil at the recommended dose it is close to 100% safe. I know if I get a tetanus, or small pox, or measles shot I won’t catch the disease. There is lots of history and open data to support those assumptions, as well as anecdotal evidence from personal experiences. I know for a fact that the original numbers that have been reported on infections and deaths of the disease were definitively inaccurate. Again, my wife and several members of my family are in medical fields. So my best guess is that somewhere, that my dumbass can’t find, there are somewhat accurate numbers on current deaths and adverse reactions linked to the vaccine. If there isn’t somewhat accurate numbers, then we are either being experimented on with the vaccine or lied to about true risks that are involved. And too reiterate, I’m not here to argue, I’m hoping someone can help me find some convincing data on the risks of the vaccine based on the current usage. If you can’t help me with that then that is ok too. I’m not looking for a debate, I’m looking for thorough and accurate information that we can all use. That is all.

I’m also interested in this info. I’m not an expert, but I can try to help with the search. Not to sound insulting, but have you tried Google? If you don’t trust a search engine, or certain sources that I would expect to find the original data (the CDC), let me know. But to tackle just the FDA portion, that’s how I would personally start and then I would try to sift through and weigh the information based on the source. (Note that I feel it is hard to trust any single source these days - notwithstanding prior historical pedigrees. I did see, however, a recent Netflix documentary on Oxy etc., so I’ve heard of a “black box warning” that I’ve been meaning to research anyway.)

And not to argue, but this sentence above jumps out at me - “ I know for a fact that the original numbers that have been reported on infections and deaths of the disease were definitively inaccurate.” Can you expand on this a bit? It might help in thinking through what I search. Example - were you referencing actual or projected numbers (or comparing the two); reported by government, media or both; and how did you determine the inaccuracy?

I’m sorry to be so specific. But on a prior tangent, in another thread (in a galaxy far far away) I responded to a request for info. When I responded, the source was shot down, then the follow-up information rejected. So I’m hoping to avoid the same.

 

[Actual_Cryptid]

Are there thresholds for reactions and or deaths for meds being approved by the FDA? Since this is a new process being used in this vaccine I would expect some sort of accurate data that shows people are not dying or getting sick from the vaccine as time is passing. In my personal life I know of two people who died of Covid after being vaccinated and 3 people who were hospitalized after getting the vaccine. One with Myocarditis and two with strokes. All 3 hospitalized within 12 days of getting vaccinated. Now, when I see that with my own two eyes in the small world that I live in I get to wondering how do I know it’s safe. I know if I take Advil at the recommended dose it is close to 100% safe. I know if I get a tetanus, or small pox, or measles shot I won’t catch the disease. There is lots of history and open data to support those assumptions, as well as anecdotal evidence from personal experiences. I know for a fact that the original numbers that have been reported on infections and deaths of the disease were definitively inaccurate. Again, my wife and several members of my family are in medical fields. So my best guess is that somewhere, that my dumbass can’t find, there are somewhat accurate numbers on current deaths and adverse reactions linked to the vaccine. If there isn’t somewhat accurate numbers, then we are either being experimented on with the vaccine or lied to about true risks that are involved. And too reiterate, I’m not here to argue, I’m hoping someone can help me find some convincing data on the risks of the vaccine based on the current usage. If you can’t help me with that then that is ok too. I’m not looking for a debate, I’m looking for thorough and accurate information that we can all use. That is all.

Alright so again, we have a series of things to deal with here.

First, this is not a new process across the board. The Janssen ("J&J" one-shot vaccine) is not an MRNA vaccine. It is a "traditional" inactivated virus vaccine, like the ones used for flu shots. I don't know why nobody acknwoledges that in these discussions, but in my opinion it serves only to muddy the discussiona dn undermines the legitimacy of the discussion to discuss "the vaccine" as though it's monolithic.

Secondly, MRNA vaccines are not new. The first was tested on mice in 1995. You cna go read about it by searching for "MRNA vaccine history" in the search engine of your choice. There's a good Nature article on the full history, from the discovery of MRNA in the 70s onward. The first clinical trials of an MRNA vaccine were in 2015, following about 3 years od DOD research and funding. This is never brought up because it flies in the face of the "it was rushed, it's untested" narrative.

If you want to learn about the process for FDA approval you can read about it on the FDA's website, or there's no shortage of articles. Start here: https://www.fda.gov/drugs/development-approval-process-drugs

Now you say if you take advil at the recommended dose you know it's 100% safe. Only you don't know that, and you are in fact wrong about that.

Can ibuprofen increase the risk of heart attack?

Common pain medicines such as ibuprofen or naproxen sodium may increase the risk of heart attack and stroke.

www.mayoclinic.org

FDA agrees. That's over and above the risks of ulcers, nausea, vomiting, diarhea, etc. It's printed on the side of the bottle, but you don't read that. You assume it's perfectly safe, you pop an ibuprofen, and you go about your day. Injuries and deaths stemming from NSAIDS are reported to the FDA and there's ongoing monitoring.

Next up, other vaccines. MMR is 97% effective against measles and rubella and 88% against mumps according to clinical data, not 100%. the smallpox vaccine is only about 95% effective at preventing infection, and only for 3-5 years before your titers drop significantly. Tetanus is a wild pull, because it takes 6 shots and you need a booster after exposure, famously, to achiev 95% protection against diptheria and 80% against pertussis, with near-100% protection against tetanus only achieved in conjunction with a post-exposure booster within 48 hours. All of this easily researched on the search engine of your choice, and yet you were certain each of these gave you 100% protection and the COVID vaccines were somehow different rather than being pretty well on par with the ones you mentioned for efficacy.

Now you say "isn’t somewhat accurate numbers, then we are either being experimented on with the vaccine or lied to about true risks that are involved" but that's a false choice. There can be reasonably accurate numbers. There could be risks well documented that, like the risks of NSAIDS and other vaccines you just aren't aware of because there's not a political campaign to make you fear them. There can be decently accurate figures that lag population. There can be accurate estimates that you aren't privvy to. Inserting "we're being experimented on" just doesn't follow at all, logically. There have already been experiments, followed by limited clinical trials, followed by full clinical trials, followed by (for the PFizer vaccine) full approval by the FDA.

You say you know for a fact "original numbers that have been reported on infections and deaths of the disease were definitively inaccurate." How do you know that? What lead you to that and how did you confirm that? To which original numbers are you referring when you say that?

With that said, have you already reviewed the clinical trial data, the safety and risk sheets provided by the manufacturers and the FDA, or the third party reviews submitted and peer-reviewed inn journals like Nature, New England Journal of Medicine, etc? If so, what did you find. If not, why? All of those resources come up when I use google to search for covid vaccine safety information.

 

[MattB]

Are there thresholds for reactions and or deaths for meds being approved by the FDA? Since this is a new process being used in this vaccine I would expect some sort of accurate data that shows people are not dying or getting sick from the vaccine as time is passing. In my personal life I know of two people who died of Covid after being vaccinated and 3 people who were hospitalized after getting the vaccine. One with Myocarditis and two with strokes. All 3 hospitalized within 12 days of getting vaccinated. Now, when I see that with my own two eyes in the small world that I live in I get to wondering how do I know it’s safe. I know if I take Advil at the recommended dose it is close to 100% safe. I know if I get a tetanus, or small pox, or measles shot I won’t catch the disease. There is lots of history and open data to support those assumptions, as well as anecdotal evidence from personal experiences. I know for a fact that the original numbers that have been reported on infections and deaths of the disease were definitively inaccurate. Again, my wife and several members of my family are in medical fields. So my best guess is that somewhere, that my dumbass can’t find, there are somewhat accurate numbers on current deaths and adverse reactions linked to the vaccine. If there isn’t somewhat accurate numbers, then we are either being experimented on with the vaccine or lied to about true risks that are involved. And too reiterate, I’m not here to argue, I’m hoping someone can help me find some convincing data on the risks of the vaccine based on the current usage. If you can’t help me with that then that is ok too. I’m not looking for a debate, I’m looking for thorough and accurate information that we can all use. That is all.

A couple of things: measles and smallpox vaccines are in the high 90% effective range, but not 100%.

On the serious complications/deaths data question, I do not think that data exists because 1) the primary means by which they are reported (VAERS) is voluntary, and 2) deaths are reported which may or may not be due to the vaccine. Deaths reported to VAERS of those who received the vaccine are in excess of 20K, but at last look only 9 were deemed to have been directly caused by the vaccine. Most of the 20k have not been adjudicated and, if I had to guess based on how the cases have been adjudicated *seem* to translate to vaccine-caused death, the actual number is likely more in the 2-3 digit range rather than low 5 digits as some errantly claim.

The best data I can think of to assess deaths and serious side effects would be to look at Pfizer or Moderna’s clinical trial data. If memory serves Pfizer included 44K people in its clinical trial and 10 died during the course of that trial, I believe 6 in the placebo group and 4 that received the vaccine.

 

[bpurtz]

This is a good (IMHO) podcast that came out today - https://peterattiamd.com/covid-19-current-state-omicron/. Peter Attia interviews two MDs - Marty Makary and Zubin Damania. I expect that everyone who has chimed in on this thread (at least lately) will find something they agree with, and something that conflicts with their views.

I'm only 50 minutes in, but this podcast is excellent so far!!! Thanks for sharing!

The 39-46 minute mark is precisely why I am skeptical about the motivations from the current administration and big pharma and why some on this thread would label me a "conspiracy theorist" and I guess ultimately a "domestic terrorist". Whatever - Lol.

I'm not anti-vax, but my delta experience was extremely mild - a 3 day headache - 46 weeks after my infection I have 62% circulating antibodies so I just don't see the point for me. Fortunately I'm self employed...

I have a buddy who also had an extremely mild experience. Even though he has natural immunity his company forced him to get the jab shortly after Brandon made the push for 100+ employee companies to mandate the vax...I am opposed to that kind of tactic.

 

[Yoder]

IOW, there is no penalty or cost for being a conspiracy theorist and spreading misinformation. Especially when it's done anonymously online.

One could argue it's a form of domestic terrorism to spread misinformation that could result in the loss of lives.

At the very least, it's unpatriotic.

Accusing me of being a domestic terrorist is typical of a leftist trying to infringe on my first amendment rights. Also your name is Newtosavage. Mine Is Yoder, which is my actual name. I'm vaccinated. Half my family is vaccinated. All I'm saying is there are drugs that may help treat covid and may prevent you from getting covid. I never said don't get vaccinated. I could care less if anyone gets vaccinated. I really think it doesn't matter either way. Also I'm 99.9% sure nobody is losing their life because of this. Fun fact, Tylenol is more dangerous than Ivermectin. Look it up. If you want real domestic terrorists just turn on CNN or listen to anything Faucci says.