Painless load development (mine)

[Castle Rock]

At the risk of being branded a "painful" reloader, are you guys getting 4-5 firings of 223 without annealing? (I'm assuming @Formidilosus's is "I never anneal")

I get over 15 on Lapua before trimming and annealing

 

[Hardly_Hangin]

Someone asked earlier in this thread about # of firings they get from 223 or 6 arc brass and IIRC they are shooting wiht an AR. I've not put a ton of firings on brass used in AR before but it's sure harder on brass than a bolt gun is so I wouldn't expect as good of results in that regard. Also, i'd bump shoulders more on brass intended for an AR so you're working the brass more.

Thatd be me!

i wasnt sure if id get more or less loadings. Gas gun pressures in theory would be less than bolt gun pressures (extending brass life?) and my gun is a stright pull repeater not semi-auto (extending brass life?)

My OCD tries to get the best of me a lot at the bench, and I do my best to force it back down. LOL!

Same here - the painless method is like a sigh of releif that i dont have to be so OCD about it, cause it just works

 

[wind gypsy]

Thatd be me!

i wasnt sure if id get more or less loadings. Gas gun pressures in theory would be less than bolt gun pressures (extending brass life?) and my gun is a stright pull repeater not semi-auto (extending brass life?)


Same here - the painless method is like a sigh of releif that i dont have to be so OCD about it, cause it just works

Yeah, i'd think a straight pull would be closer to a bolt gun in that regard and easier on brass. Probably doesnt get it all filthy like a gas gun does either.

 

[Hardly_Hangin]

Yeah, i'd think a straight pull would be closer to a bolt gun in that regard and easier on brass. Probably doesnt get it all filthy like a gas gun does either.

Definitely cleaner, especially shooting suppressed

 

[wind gypsy]

I get over 15 on Lapua before trimming and annealing

Yes but you're a neck sizing weirdo that doesn't mind resistance on bolt close.

 

[Castle Rock]

 

[Mule3006Elk]

Painless load development ?

300 WM
Max load 75 grains. First sign of pressure at 75.5 grains (bolt lift change)
Do I use max load (75 grain) or first over pressure load (75.5) when I back off to check first 10 round group?
With a 300 WM should I back off 0.5 or 1 grain?

Thanks

Addendum: I sent a DM to the OP. He kindly responded. Load until published max or any signs of pressure. Then back off at least 1 grain. My published max is 76.5 grains, I had pressure signs at 75.5 grains. I will load 10 rounds at 74.5 grains.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Another painless load dev done. Put this barreled action in a factory stock for now to get shooting and finish modding up a Stockys VG. Rifle is a Kinport Peak Rifles Tikka custom 6 Creedmoor with a 20" .75 taperless PBB blank. This is shots #4-14, shot 3 to get on paper, adjusted to rough in zero, 2 - 5 shot strings. Mild charge of 39gr H4350, 108 ELD-M @ .040" off the lands.

 

[Chet707]

Questions for anybody.

So assuming the painless load development has been done, the next step after pressure testing and loading 20 rounds is to shoot 10 at 100 yards and 10 at distance to validate velocity.

My question is this. If I have a good chrono, would I accomplish anything by shooting all 20 at one hundred yards and having a larger sample size for the initial precision of the group and still having a 20 shot average velocity to start with at distance?

I finally got my own reloading setup and did the painless load dev for my 243. If I remember correctly, it shot approx 1.8 - 2" 20 round group with factory 95 gr fusions and it regularly shoots .75 to 1.25 for 5 shot groups.

For the painless method I started with h4350, CCI 200 LR and 95 NBT. Loaded 10 at around 40.6 gr and the 10 round group was 1.1"

I am using a harrells Culver powder measure (thanks to this thread). And a cheapo lymen pocket scale. I weighed the sized and primed case, zero the scale and throw. I averaged 40.6 grains, with the heaviest thrown charge being 40.7 and the lowest thrown charge being 40.3 I came up with an ES of 75 and a SD of 20 per the Garmin.

Should I ignore the ES of 75 and SD of 20 because it has little to no effect at the killing range of this rifle (per WEZ), or should I start trickling to get a more consistent powder charge? Will trickling to the tenth of a powder charge even bring down the ES and SD?

Every time I post on here I feel like I'm rambling, so hopefully it's easy enough to read.

 

[philcox]

Questions for anybody.

So assuming the painless load development has been done, the next step after pressure testing and loading 20 rounds is to shoot 10 at 100 yards and 10 at distance to validate velocity.

My question is this. If I have a good chrono, would I accomplish anything by shooting all 20 at one hundred yards and having a larger sample size for the initial precision of the group and still having a 20 shot average velocity to start with at distance?

I finally got my own reloading setup and did the painless load dev for my 243. If I remember correctly, it shot approx 1.8 - 2" 20 round group with factory 95 gr fusions and it regularly shoots .75 to 1.25 for 5 shot groups.

For the painless method I started with h4350, CCI 200 LR and 95 NBT. Loaded 10 at around 40.6 gr and the 10 round group was 1.1"

I am using a harrells Culver powder measure (thanks to this thread). And a cheapo lymen pocket scale. I weighed the sized and primed case, zero the scale and throw. I averaged 40.6 grains, with the heaviest thrown charge being 40.7 and the lowest thrown charge being 40.3 I came up with an ES of 75 and a SD of 20 per the Garmin.

Should I ignore the ES of 75 and SD of 20 because it has little to no effect at the killing range of this rifle (per WEZ), or should I start trickling to get a more consistent powder charge? Will trickling to the tenth of a powder charge even bring down the ES and SD?

Every time I post on here I feel like I'm rambling, so hopefully it's easy enough to read.

IF it were me, and I have a Garmin Chrono (so theoretically "good"). I'd shoot the 10 @100, to verify the load it worth a crap and that the group size is within my requirements (no since in shooting the rest if you first 4 shots are 3 MOA and you need a sub 2 MOA. After the 10 give you a "good feel" for group size, then I would velocity true (maybe it takes you 3 or 4 to do that if you start with a good value from the chrono. Once done, then I'd turn back and probably shoot the rest of what is left of the 20 at the 100y group (same POA). Kind of give you the best of both IMHO. Also, that is exactly the way I have done mine, so I am a bit biased.

 

[tstowater]

I'll take a shot at Chet's question about ES and SD. Smaller is better at what cost. Go to Accurate Shooter and some of the other forums where people spend infinite amounts of time and money to get small. What is the return on your investment going to be. If you drop from a 1.5 inch group to a 1.3 inch group and nothing else changed, does it justify the work. It's your time and money so it's your decision. For practice loads, I would work on consistency and for hunting loads, I would work on a finer tuned load for more consistency. I do a lot of prairie dog shooting. I call it live target practice and I am looking for minute of prairie dog. If I miss, it's likely my fault and not the ammo. YMMV.

 

[Chet707]

Thanks for the responses.

Its a 20" 243 with a 10 twist barrel so limited to more standard BC bullets. Went with the 95 gr Nosler Ballistic tips because rokslide.

Per AB quantum with my average 10 shot MV im just above 1800 fps at 500 yards.

Per the garmin my SD is 20.xx.
At 500 yards, WEZ hit rate percentage changes from 91% @ a SD of 25 fps to 92% @ an SD of 5 fps.

Basically my error in range accounts for a larger percentage than changing SD. Obviously an ES of 75 and SD of 20 seems unreasonable but at the same time, it doesn't seem to be a large contributing factor in the effective range of this rifle.

The initial accuracy is already there and I could obviously run around chasing my tail to tighten everything up but that doesn't really seem painless.

Am I missing something?

 

[Okie_Poke]

Should I ignore the ES of 75 and SD of 20 because it has little to no effect at the killing range of this rifle (per WEZ), or should I start trickling to get a more consistent powder charge? Will trickling to the tenth of a powder charge even bring down the ES and SD?

I largely agree with this:

I'll take a shot at Chet's question about ES and SD. Smaller is better at what cost. Go to Accurate Shooter and some of the other forums where people spend infinite amounts of time and money to get small. What is the return on your investment going to be. If you drop from a 1.5 inch group to a 1.3 inch group and nothing else changed, does it justify the work. It's your time and money so it's your decision. For practice loads, I would work on consistency and for hunting loads, I would work on a finer tuned load for more consistency. I do a lot of prairie dog shooting. I call it live target practice and I am looking for minute of prairie dog. If I miss, it's likely my fault and not the ammo. YMMV.

That ES and SD probably isn't going to matter practically. If you are getting acceptable grouping/hits at range, then you can safely let "good enough" be good enough. There's a lot of factory ammo that puts up velocity spread numbers that look like that or worse. Also, while you will probably shrink that ES/SD by trickling/weighing every powder charge, you may not. You won't know until you test it. I get similar velocity spreads with 6.5 Staball with a particular rifle, even if I do weigh every powder charge. With h4350, I would expect it to shrink if you weigh each charge, though I would not necessarily expect that to shrink your group size, especially at 100 yards.

For peace of mind on my hunting ammo, I do weigh every charge. That's mostly a mental thing so I am confident I am controlling what I can control. I don't think it really matters for my use case, but I do it anyway.

 

[Chet707]

Well I loaded another 10 rounds. Same process. Throwing directly into the cases and checking weights, no trickling.

Gonna go shoot these 10 at distance approx 570 since that all the elevation i can dial (leupold vx3 HD) 0 MOA rail. If group size is still acceptable them im done in 26 rounds and completely pain free lol.

Thanks for the input, keep it coming as im trying to learn all i can.

 

[nm.otter]

Should I ignore the ES of 75 and SD of 20 because it has little to no effect at the killing range of this rifle (per WEZ)

What effect does it have on the precision (cone of fire)? That's what actually matters.

 

[Chet707]

What effect does it have on the precision (cone of fire)? That's what actually matters.

Im trying to understand your question better.

Are you asking if a smaller ES/SD will produce a tighter cone? At 100 yards im guessing it will not have a meaningful effect on group size/precision/cone. Although I could be way wrong.

From my understanding, you can have a precise cone (sub 1") and that group may produce high ES/SD. But the inverse isn't true? A very low ES/SD might not produce a very precise cone.

The base line precision that I currently have is a 1.1" 10 shot group with a "high" ES/SD. I don't know what the effect ES/SD has on that baseline

 

[nm.otter]

The base line precision that I currently have is a 1.1" 10 shot group with a "high" ES/SD.

Quite simply:
1.1" is the important figure here. If you can hold that (or a bit more) for 20 shots, it's time to worry about other things than the rifle and the ammo.

I don't know what the effect ES/SD has on that baseline

Likely less than you have been led to believe.

 

[Chet707]

That is what I thought.

Interesting video from riflekraft that kinda puts a visual to it.