Painless load development (mine)

[General RE LEE]

Thanks for the answer! I think I may have worded my question incorrectly however, or perhaps am using the wrong terminology. I definitely don’t mix brass, but even within the same manufacturer brass headstamps may vary by year, location of manufacture, etc. I’m guessing this doesn’t have the same variation as manufacturer to manufacturer but is it enough of a difference to worry about or spend time sorting lake city or federal brass into lots?

I’ll sometimes buy Hornady brass that is a different lot than the Hornady brass I worked up a load 3 years before. I don’t noticeable any discernible difference. Might see more variation with different lots of powder though.

 

[wind gypsy]

Thanks for the answer! I think I may have worded my question incorrectly however, or perhaps am using the wrong terminology. I definitely don’t mix brass, but even within the same manufacturer brass headstamps may vary by year, location of manufacture, etc. I’m guessing this doesn’t have the same variation as manufacturer to manufacturer but is it enough of a difference to worry about or spend time sorting lake city or federal brass into lots?

That’s a great big “depends”. Nosler brass used to be sorted and prepped norma brass a handful of years ago. Now it’s made by someone different and is notably different at least in some cartridges. I have ADI 223 brass from different ammo with different headstamps and it is notably different. In other cases it may not matter.

 

[id_jon]

Thanks for the answer! I think I may have worded my question incorrectly however, or perhaps am using the wrong terminology. I definitely don’t mix brass, but even within the same manufacturer brass headstamps may vary by year, location of manufacture, etc. I’m guessing this doesn’t have the same variation as manufacturer to manufacturer but is it enough of a difference to worry about or spend time sorting lake city or federal brass into lots?

I have 480ish pieces of lapua 6cm. ~400 of them have a velocity ES of 30ish for all the shots I track with a chrono, ~80 of them are 50fps faster than the rest. Luckily I happened to have them separated by lot before I discovered this. Depending on application, it may not matter. These are for my prs match gun, so I really prefer to have them separate.

I would not go out of my way to sort already mixed brass, but I keep ammo that I care to have separated in ammo boxes that it always returns to.

 

[TimberHunter]

Hey All, really struggling with ES. I know Form covered how little ES/SD effects impacts but I want to bring my ES down from the 40-50fps I’m seeing (Labrador)

I’ve used Lapua, Peterson and Hornady. ES didn’t change when I went to better(Lapua/peterson) brass

I’m using known good recipes. 140/147, H4350, match primers, 6.5cm

I’ve tried FL dies, Redding body dies with Lee collet die. Didn’t make a difference.

Measure powder with Frankford Intellidropper. Accurate to .1 but I’d say the closer to .2 grains but I load each round with the same amount of powder per the Intellidropper. I don’t think this is my issue because people throw charges with good ES/SD numbers

Any suggestions before I go back to factory were I was seeing 20-30ES


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[General RE LEE]

Hey All, really struggling with ES. I know Form covered how little ES/SD effects impacts but I want to bring my ES down from the 40-50fps I’m seeing (Labrador)

I’ve used Lapua, Peterson and Hornady. ES didn’t change when I went to better(Lapua/peterson) brass

I’m using known good recipes. 140/147, H4350, match primers, 6.5cm

I’ve tried FL dies, Redding body dies with Lee collet die. Didn’t make a difference.

Measure powder with Frankford Intellidropper. Accurate to .1 but I’d say the closer to .2 grains but I load each round with the same amount of powder per the Intellidropper. I don’t think this is my issue because people throw charges with good ES/SD numbers

Any suggestions before I go back to factory were I was seeing 20-30ES


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What powder? I don’t often get low SDs and ES with ball powders.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I have loaded cci 250 primers for over 50 years without much variance. I recently have had to go to winchester large rifle magnum primers. I have found I can't mix those shells with cci 250s and will likely have redevelop loads on .1 gr intervals to find the optimum balance. I used to think primers were just primers but now I know differant. Winchester is not better or worse just differant and needs to be adjusted for my next 50 years.

 

[TimberHunter]

What powder? I don’t often get low SDs and ES with ball powders.

H4350


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[General RE LEE]

H4350


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That’s what I load and get low numbers.

 

[TimberHunter]

That’s what I load and get low numbers.

Yeah it’s something I’m doing or not doing because I’m man, many other have had success with what I’m using. I’ve tried just about everything I can think of, likely just go back to factory Hornady that shoots 10 round groups at or less than MOA


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[Axlrod]

Yeah it’s something I’m doing or not doing because I’m man, many other have had success with what I’m using. I’ve tried just about everything I can think of, likely just go back to factory Hornady that shoots 10 round groups at or less than MOA


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You could try different primers. How do your reloads group?

I do load development at 600-800 yards and only pay attention to the target. If it shoots good I don't feel chasing low ES/SD is of any value.

 

[TimberHunter]

You could try different primers. How do your reloads group?

I do load development at 600-800 yards and only pay attention to the target. If it shoots good I don't feel chasing low ES/SD is of any value.

Have only grouped that at 100 and it’s at or below NOA for 10 shots. I know this is as Form says “metal mastrabation” but with with factory have such lower ES than I, I can’t help but think there’s a lot of improvement for me.

As far as a difference powder, if I had only one 6.5 rifle that would make sense but with two different 6.5 rifles that both shoot well but have similar ES (one Lapua brass one Peterson brass), I don’t think it’s powder related


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[Axlrod]

Have only grouped that at 100 and it’s at or below NOA for 10 shots. I know this is as Form says “metal mastrabation” but with with factory have such lower ES than I, I can’t help but think there’s a lot of improvement for me.

As far as a difference powder, if I had only one 6.5 rifle that would make sense but with two different 6.5 rifles that both shoot well but have similar ES (one Lapua brass one Peterson brass), I don’t think it’s powder related


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Primers I said try different primers not powder.

If you believe lower ES is improvement (it's not) then you should also:
Get custom dies
weight sort primers
weight sort bullets
weight sort brass
get a lab grade scale
uniform primer pockets
measure primer seat depth
debur flash holes
Henderson case trimer
AMP anneal brass
This should get you the best ES possible, but likely no real improvement in group size. But you will have maxed out mental masterbation. I don't even know what metal mastrabation is!

 

[id_jon]

Primers I said try different primers not powder.

If you believe lower ES is improvement (it's not) then you should also:
Get custom dies
weight sort primers
weight sort bullets
weight sort brass
get a lab grade scale
uniform primer pockets
measure primer seat depth
debur flash holes
Henderson case trimer
AMP anneal brass
This should get you the best ES possible, but likely no real improvement in group size. But you will have maxed out mental masterbation. I don't even know what metal mastrabation is!

I've never had to do any of that to get ESs of 20-25. I use a RCBS chargemaster, so .1gr is as fine as it resolves. I wouldn't weight sort if someone paid me to, nor would I touch primer pockets or flash holes. I never anneal, and I trim maybe every 5th firing.

Use good brass, good barrels, and good bullets. I would try different bullets. And if it's the same, just be happy with it either way lol.

 

[TimberHunter]

Primers I said try different primers not powder.

If you believe lower ES is improvement (it's not) then you should also:
Get custom dies
weight sort primers
weight sort bullets
weight sort brass
get a lab grade scale
uniform primer pockets
measure primer seat depth
debur flash holes
Henderson case trimer
AMP anneal brass
This should get you the best ES possible, but likely no real improvement in group size. But you will have maxed out mental masterbation. I don't even know what metal mastrabation is!

Basically just paralysis by analysis lol. Form (the started of this thread) talks about it on a recent podcast on shoot2hunt


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[TimberHunter]

I've never had to do any of that to get ESs of 20-25. I use a RCBS chargemaster, so .1gr is as fine as it resolves. I wouldn't weight sort if someone paid me to, nor would I touch primer pockets or flash holes. I never anneal, and I trim maybe every 5th firing.

Use good brass, good barrels, and good bullets. I would try different bullets. And if it's the same, just be happy with it either way lol.

If one does use good brass, good powder, good primers, good bullets, good barrels and good chronograph and is still seeing a less than ideal ES, any recommendations of how to improve ES?


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[id_jon]

If one does use good brass, good powder, good primers, good bullets, good barrels and good chronograph and is still seeing a less than ideal ES, any recommendations of how to improve ES?


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Be more lucky?
I honestly don't have a real answer for you.
Only other things I can think of that hasn't been mentioned that can affect things, do you clean the sizing lube off your cases after sizing? Do you wet tumble your brass?

 

[huntnful]

Primers I said try different primers not powder.

If you believe lower ES is improvement (it's not) then you should also:
Get custom dies
weight sort primers
weight sort bullets
weight sort brass
get a lab grade scale
uniform primer pockets
measure primer seat depth
debur flash holes
Henderson case trimer
AMP anneal brass
This should get you the best ES possible, but likely no real improvement in group size. But you will have maxed out mental masterbation. I don't even know what metal mastrabation is!

I do all of that except weight sorting and have all of those tools also. My goal is still 30 ES over a long shot string hahaha. But that’s in big magnums with 90gr. of powder. In smaller cartridges 20 ES over 10-20 shots is totally achievable. Necessary??? Depends on the goals. Damn near nothing matters at 600 yards. And damn near everything matters at 1200 yards lol. So for 99% of people, none of that matters. And I’m still more than likely going to miss because of the wind at 1200 yards lol.

But I’ve slowly eliminated and narrowed down the things that really matter for consistent loads and accuracy. The most important thing is really just that, consistency.

 

[huntnful]

If one does use good brass, good powder, good primers, good bullets, good barrels and good chronograph and is still seeing a less than ideal ES, any recommendations of how to improve ES?


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1. Change powders.

2. Have as consistent neck tension as possible.

If you feel it takes noticeably different pressures to seat bullets from case to case, you are never going to see consistency in accuracy or velocity.

 

[jonnyviceroy]

1. Change powders.

2. Have as consistent neck tension as possible.

If you feel it takes noticeably different pressures to seat bullets from case to case, you are never going to see consistency in accuracy or velocity.

+1 with everything said here…. Find the listed powders or which couple are generally good for specific cartridge and bullets you’re using and start with the faster powders listed. Sure you’ll lose some overall velocity but typically with the faster powders you’ll see a lower es. Applied ballistics tested this in 300 win mag and Norma and published some data when they went with the faster powders they all had smaller es. Depends if you value that or top end velocity more.

 

[wind gypsy]

If one does use good brass, good powder, good primers, good bullets, good barrels and good chronograph and is still seeing a less than ideal ES, any recommendations of how to improve ES?

Maybe try more neck tension?