Painless load development (mine)

[TimberHunter]

View attachment 673676
Finally got a decent day to get out and shoot. I was greatly overthinking how I’d know which load was best, but the groups told me everything.

Up to this point I’ve reloaded and shot 37 rounds total (read ever). 7 to get on paper and the remaining 30 grouping three different loads.

My go-to shooting spot is several miles back an unmaintained road that’s currently got 4’ of snow on it. Going to load up another 20 and go stretch the legs this spring when it melts!

Glad you got it figured out. What form preaches is a bit different, find pressure, back off a little bit and then load 10. Of that doesn’t shoot to your spec change the load by a grain or so (down) and then try again. If still no luck change bullet or powder. Good brass makes a difference too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[carsonkeys]

Glad you got it figured out. What form preaches is a bit different, find pressure, back off a little bit and then load 10. Of that doesn’t shoot to your spec change the load by a grain or so (down) and then try again. If still no luck change bullet or powder. Good brass makes a difference too


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I didn’t find pressure, I don’t think, but I didn’t feel comfortable pushing the limits either.

 

[TX_Diver]

View attachment 673676
Finally got a decent day to get out and shoot. I was greatly overthinking how I’d know which load was best, but the groups told me everything.

Up to this point I’ve reloaded and shot 37 rounds total (read ever). 7 to get on paper and the remaining 30 grouping three different loads.

My go-to shooting spot is several miles back an unmaintained road that’s currently got 4’ of snow on it. Going to load up another 20 and go stretch the legs this spring when it melts!

Out of curiosity what did you pick? My initial thought would be 43 gr… but it looks like you have an aggregate 30 round group of 1.5-1.75” with roughly the same center and All are decent 10 round groups so it’s hard to say one is really a bad load and another 10 of each may show a different “best”?

 

[carsonkeys]

Out of curiosity what did you pick? My initial thought would be 43 gr… but it looks like you have an aggregate 30 round group of 1.5-1.75” with roughly the same center and All are decent 10 round groups so it’s hard to say one is really a bad load and another 10 of each may show a different “best”?

I'm going with 43gr. 43.5 gr is a sloppy group primarily because it took me several rounds to get on paper.

Additionally, I think I may have had some ejector swipes on the brass on the 43.5gr group. I'll probably post a few photos here soon to get some other opinions to verify.

 

[Andouille]

... All are decent 10 round groups so it’s hard to say one is really a bad load and another 10 of each may show a different “best”?

Or a much larger sample size is needed to make any significant determination... here's an interesting video on the subject of sample size.

The guy ran an interesting statistical simulation that indicated you may need >1,000 round sample size to determine a small difference like tenths of a grain of powder. The smaller the variable, the larger the sample size needed. Makes sense.

This is the first video I've found on Youtube (after extensive searching) demonstrating that traditional load development is based on unsubstantiated statistics. I believe that the video is consistent with this discussion thread.

 

[Castle Rock]

Or a much larger sample size is needed to make any significant determination...

That is certainly true for guns that are not very predictable

With custom built accuracy rifles it only takes a small sample size because they do pretty much the same thing every time

 

[Andouille]

That is certainly true for guns that are not very predictable

With custom built accuracy rifles it only takes a small sample size because they do pretty much the same thing every time

If that is the case, then wouldn't that imply that ladder tests are valid for accurate guns, in contravention to the thesis of this 100+ page discussion? In the video they test a range of guns from 22 LR to custom long-range guns. There is less "noise" with higher precision guns and quality ammo and the corresponding statistical sample size is smaller than for cheap guns with poor ammo, but the sample size is still impracticably enormous in comparison to a 5-round group.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Or a much larger sample size is needed to make any significant determination... here's an interesting video on the subject of sample size.

The guy ran an interesting statistical simulation that indicated you may need >1,000 round sample size to determine a small difference like tenths of a grain of powder. The smaller the variable, the larger the sample size needed. Makes sense.

This is the first video I've found on Youtube (after extensive searching) demonstrating that traditional load development is based on unsubstantiated statistics. I believe that the video is consistent with this discussion thread.

Have you seen the Hornady podcast videos your groups are too small/still too small?

 

[carsonkeys]

I'm going with 43gr. 43.5 gr is a sloppy group primarily because it took me several rounds to get on paper.

Additionally, I think I may have had some ejector swipes on the brass on the 43.5gr group. I'll probably post a few photos here soon to get some other opinions to verify.

Hoping to gain some insight as to whether these are actually ejector swipes or if I’m being paranoid. Photos below.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Hoping to gain some insight as to whether these are actually ejector swipes or if I’m being paranoid. Photos below.
View attachment 673903
View attachment 673904
View attachment 673905

I am also getting those type of swipes on my 1x fired Hornady 6 CM brass with a load that should be ok. I’m leaning towards the Hornady brass being the issue. This has been discussed quite a bit. Here is an example, quoted below.

Both Nosler and Hornady brass is soft and will show pressure early. I am using 56.5 with ADG and 156s, with no pressure signs.

Another thing to look for is a carbon ring. 6.5 PRC and SAUMs have been the worst for me.

 

[HighUintas]

Hoping to gain some insight as to whether these are actually ejector swipes or if I’m being paranoid. Photos below.
View attachment 673903
View attachment 673904
View attachment 673905

I don't think so. There's no circular mark. Are you shooting a Tikka? I do and I get similar "swipes" sometimes but I know they're not from the ejector because when I get an ejector mark it is in a different location.

Here's mine. Notice the ejector mark at the top and the swipe lower left

 

[ljalberta]

I can’t really tell myself from the photos. I do know that 2 of my rifles give extractor marks on any casings. And on one of the rifles, there will be a small ejector mark on unfired brass at even mild loads. So these can be false pressure signs if caused by other factors.

 

[Andouille]

Have you seen the Hornady podcast videos your groups are too small/still too small?

Yes, why do you ask? It's my understanding that the findings of the video I linked supports Hornady's findings of small group size being statistically invalid; however, that the linked video did not find a normal distribution (bell curve) for dispersion. The statistical meaning and practical application of normal distribution vs non-normal (bimodal?) is unclear to me.

 

[carsonkeys]

I am also getting those type of swipes on my 1x fired Hornady 6 CM brass with a load that should be ok. I’m leaning towards the Hornady brass being the issue. This has been discussed quite a bit. Here is an example, quoted below.

I don't think so. There's no circular mark. Are you shooting a Tikka? I do and I get similar "swipes" sometimes but I know they're not from the ejector because when I get an ejector mark it is in a different location.

Here's mine. Notice the ejector mark at the top and the swipe lower left
View attachment 673916

I can’t really tell myself from the photos. I do know that 2 of my rifles give extractor marks on any casings. And on one of the rifles, there will be a small ejector mark on unfired brass at even mild loads. So these can be false pressure signs if caused by other factors.

Thanks gentlemen, sounds like I’m in the clear. Much appreciated!

This is a Tikka to clarify.

 

[Castle Rock]

If that is the case, then wouldn't that imply that ladder tests are valid for accurate guns, in contravention to the thesis of this 100+ page discussion? In the video they test a range of guns from 22 LR to custom long-range guns. There is less "noise" with higher precision guns and quality ammo and the corresponding statistical sample size is smaller than for cheap guns with poor ammo, but the sample size is still impracticably enormous in comparison to a 5-round group.

This thread is intended to illustrate a simple method of finding a load with acceptable hunting accuracy, it certainly isn’t a treatise on real accuracy

 

[Marbles]

I am also getting those type of swipes on my 1x fired Hornady 6 CM brass with a load that should be ok. I’m leaning towards the Hornady brass being the issue. This has been discussed quite a bit. Here is an example, quoted below.

I have gotten similar marks on Winchester brass with no such marks on Starline, shooting roughly the same velocity, same powder charge, same primer, same bullet, same seating depth. I'm pretty sure it is a brass issues and agree with you.

 

[HighUintas]

I have gotten similar marks on Winchester brass with no such marks on Starline, shooting roughly the same velocity, same powder charge, same primer, same bullet, same seating depth. I'm pretty sure it is a brass issues and agree with you.

Starline quality is way above its price point

 

[Montana Slim]

I have gotten similar marks on Winchester brass with no such marks on Starline, shooting roughly the same velocity, same powder charge, same primer, same bullet, same seating depth. I'm pretty sure it is a brass issues and agree with you.

Internal case volume could definitely make a difference in pressure... velocity is probably your best evidence here, but be careful keeping 'everything the same' (except brass mfg) if you're pushing pressure

 

[Marbles]

Internal case volume could definitely make a difference in pressure... velocity is probably your best evidence here, but be careful keeping 'everything the same' (except brass mfg) if you're pushing pressure

Some interesting points, I'll start a thread on it because I have been surprised across the board on what I expected, versus what I found.

I checked a load with 0.5 gr more powder, then 1 gr more powder in the Starline brass before playing around.

 

[Marbles]

Ok, started the thread.

Does brass matter?

So, does brass and headstamp matter? If it does, then why: -Internal volume? -Brass alloy? -Neck tension? -Consistency? I have 4 headstamps in 223 available to me. Starline, purchased as new brass, loaded and shot twice before. Sig that came to me as loaded ammo (purchased a few...

rokslide.com

I'm going to update it slowly, primarily because making predictions, then comparing them to reality is valuable and when all the information is given at once people don't do that. Besides, I'm only a step or two ahead and what to see how my predictions line up with others.