Painless load development (mine)

[amassi]

This is a great thread. I have been making my reloading "painful" instead of painless.

I found this on the Hodgdon website:

First, choose the bullet for your intended use. Review the reload data to find the velocity level you wish to achieve. As you look at the powder charges, chances are very good one of the powders that meets your velocity criteria shows a “C” beside the maximum charge and/or gives one of the highest velocities. The “C” means a lightly compressed charge of powder. That is an ideal situation, as maximum or near maximum charge weights that yield from 95% to 103% load density tend to give the most uniform velocities, as well as top accuracy.

Any comments for this approach in choosing a powder?

Blessings~

Some people don’t like compressed loads, I think mostly the light neck tension crowd who may be afraid of their bullets moving out of the case mouth.
Other than a little crunch when seating bullets I’ve never had an issue.
A full case fill is the quickest way to narrow down powders that should work. If one of those powders is temp sensitive then all the better.


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[Marbles]

@Formidilosus looking at your dies I take it you don't feel a need to crimp. Does crimping cause any issues, or just not needed?

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus looking at your dies I take it you don't feel a need to crimp. Does crimping cause any issues, or just not needed?

Not needed on bolt action ammo as there is pretty solid neck tension from these. For semi autos I have crimp dies or adjust regular dies to do it.

 

[wind gypsy]

This is a great thread. I have been making my reloading "painful" instead of painless.

I found this on the Hodgdon website:

First, choose the bullet for your intended use. Review the reload data to find the velocity level you wish to achieve. As you look at the powder charges, chances are very good one of the powders that meets your velocity criteria shows a “C” beside the maximum charge and/or gives one of the highest velocities. The “C” means a lightly compressed charge of powder. That is an ideal situation, as maximum or near maximum charge weights that yield from 95% to 103% load density tend to give the most uniform velocities, as well as top accuracy.

Any comments for this approach in choosing a powder?

Blessings~

If you have a rifle throated to seat your bullets ideally and a magazine that fits them, i dont think there's anything wrong with taking that into consideration for powder choice.

I dislike heavily compressed loads. Especially when a bullet needs to be seated deeply in a case due to magazine length restrictions for a couple reasons. For one, it means i'm likely using a fairly long drop tube to cram powder in the case which slows my powder drops a little bit. The other is that there gets to be very inconsistent levels of seating pressure required. Sometime to the degree that some bullets are getting more deformed by the seating stem. While its fairly likely it wont make a meaningful difference in me hitting vs missing something, i just dont like it.

I'd also ask - if the idea that case fill is a big factor in giving uniform velocities, why do relatively low fill rates seem to be top performers when it comes to consistency at times? One example is popularity of H4350 with heavies in cases like 300wsm and 7saum - fill rate isn't high and they seem to be remarkably consistent. I've seen similar with varget in 6.5x47.

 

[Bomberodevil]

Here’s a question regarding the painless method. I recently got some Peterson brass for my 280 ai, and I loaded it with 10 rounds, 59.2 grains of H4831, 162 ELDX, .030 off. This is close to my normal load with this rifle, except with Nosler brass.

Regarding the target photo. Round 1 was high, don’t know if that’s a cold bore shot or pilot error. Rounds 2-10 were fairly close,with the vertical spread being better than the horizontal spread. It was also 15 mph winds or so.

Could I make the presumption that since the vertical spread is less than .80, this is a decent hunting recipe? Or should I try another powder charge?

I haven’t chrono’ed this yet since I have a Magnetospeed and I do velocity after development, but my pressure test of one round had this at 2920.

 

[WestTN2288]

The measure I showed is the Harrell's 90 Culver measure. I got it just under 10 years ago, it has gone up in price from $209.99 to $230 in that time. It's the cheapest measure Harrell's makes.

I measure powder three ways, and honestly, the Harrell's is my least used of the three due to my workflow, but I still can't imagine getting rid of it for reasons I'll elaborate on below.

First, let's look at repeatability. I chose four powders to test:
H1000 - Large stick extruded
Varget - medium stick extruded
8208 XBR - small stick extruded
Leverevolution - ball

Obviously there are plenty of powders in between, but this should show a decent representation of the performance.

For this test I left the micrometer at one setting (54.75), dumped powder in, then threw 30 charges and weighed them on my FX120i (a lab scale that reads down to .02 grains and is well behaved for anyone unfamiliar). I didn't do any trick double tapping of the handle or body that I've read about anyone doing, I didn't discount throws that had some kernel binding, I didn't even throw a few to get it settled initially. Filled it up with powder and went for it. My results were:

View attachment 615255

I've done test's like this before, and am not surprised by these results. Even with H1000, I'm perfectly happy with this type of performance for:

Anything I do to 600 (I don't compete in the accuracy disciplines at 600).
Anything I do with a 223, my highest volume round (If I was trying to win a PRS match with one, I'd weigh, but I have yet to do that)
Club matches, especially with a powder like 8208 (or 4895 which throws pretty similar).

Three things really separate the Harrell's from say an RCBS thrower for me:
- It has a micrometer adjustment that clicks, is repeatable, and is linear
- It does seem to be more accurate/less particular about how you run it
- It clamps onto a flat edge instead of requiring a stand

For serious competition beyond 600 I weigh them, but with 8208 or 4895 it's pretty hard to tell the difference on target.

The Micrometer (at 54.75 here):

View attachment 615257

The micrometer is very repeatable, and most extruded powders are ~ 1.75 on the mic (or 7 clicks) per grain. So if I'm trying to throw 40.0 grains, I guess and throw one, lets say I get 38.5 grains. I'd add 10 clicks and throw again. After the third throw I should just be throwing a few to confirm I'm not a click off before I mass produce. And after I do that ONCE, I write down the mic number with my load data and can go back to it immediately, throw one or two to confirm, and I'm mass producing again.

I mentioned I don't use the Harrel's a ton anymore for production (I'll get to that), but what I can't live without it for is load development. I can't shoot that close to my house, and I am pretty impatient with load development and want to have it done in one range trip. I do a little homework, finding a seating depth that's either .020"-.030" off the lands or whatever fits in the mag, then I find charge ranges I think are appropriate and quickly map the Harrell's mic to them, here's one from my notes I did from a 6.5 PRC from a while back:

View attachment 615258

Then I get to the range, load and shoot (hopefully over the chrono) getting something like this:

View attachment 615259

Once I get home, I'll throw a handful at wherever I landed and write down the weight for reference as well.


For anyone loading in decent volume that isn't ONLY loading 1000yd level competition ammo, AND is loading single stage I'd definitely recommend considering something similar. The reason I don't use mine for production much is that I load everything on a progressive, and it's either using a powder funnel and the FX-120i w/ Autotrickler V2 as shown here:

View attachment 615262

I can do 200+ rounds an hour with prepped brass on that setup, pretty relaxed and weighing charges more or less to the kernel. Or...

I set it up with the Hornady thrower with the case activated powder measure as shown here:

View attachment 615263

It's a bit less accurate and a bit more finicky to get dialed in. It does have a micrometer that works pretty well, and once I get it set it often stays there for 1,000+ rounds. And I only use it for 8208 or finer. It's pretty easy to exceed 300 rounds an hour with prepped brass and being relaxed about it.

I can stick the Harrell's in the powder funnel and use it that way; and I have in the past. However, my Autotrickler is so dialed at this point that for this workflow the Harrell's doesn't really save any time.

Maybe you said and I missed, but have you done this with Hornady powder measure? I have the same measure and wanted to do the same thing, but my scale only goes to .1, so I would have to do a LOT of throws to get the data I’m interested in. Edit: interested in Hornady with leverevolution*

 

[Carl Ross]

@WestTN2288

Here's some numbers with the Hornady and Leverevolution. Better than I expected, but a caveat: there was a throw right at the beginning that was .2 gr lower than anything else. When it became apparent it was an outlier (and probably an artifact of pouring the powder and adjusting the micrometer, I removed it from the data. In actual use I almost always throw two back into the powder jug, then throw one to measure. If it's in the range, I'm off to the races.

 

[WestTN2288]

@Carl Ross you are the man. I owe you a beer or 12. Thank you very much

 

[Harvey_NW]

Here’s a question regarding the painless method. I recently got some Peterson brass for my 280 ai, and I loaded it with 10 rounds, 59.2 grains of H4831, 162 ELDX, .030 off. This is close to my normal load with this rifle, except with Nosler brass.

That's a STIFF charge, you're almost 4gr over max. If that's first firing I bet you'll get higher pressures after they're formed too, depending on headspace dimension.

Regarding the target photo. Round 1 was high, don’t know if that’s a cold bore shot or pilot error. Rounds 2-10 were fairly close,with the vertical spread being better than the horizontal spread. It was also 15 mph winds or so.

Scope? Cold bore fliers have pretty well been debunked..

Could I make the presumption that since the vertical spread is less than .80, this is a decent hunting recipe? Or should I try another powder charge?

I'd hunt with that load no problem after getting it zeroed up. The only powder charge adjustment that might make a marginal improvement is dropping the charge. Personally I would make my zero adjustment, drop that load by a grain, and shoot it again.

I haven’t chrono’ed this yet since I have a Magnetospeed and I do velocity after development, but my pressure test of one round had this at 2920.

I'm not sure what your barrel length is, but in my experience with 280ai and that combo, that's ripping. I suspect you're over pressure.

 

[Bomberodevil]

That's a STIFF charge, you're almost 4gr over max. If that's first firing I bet you'll get higher pressures after they're formed too, depending on headspace dimension.


Scope? Cold bore fliers have pretty well been debunked..


I'd hunt with that load no problem after getting it zeroed up. The only powder charge adjustment that might make a marginal improvement is dropping the charge. Personally I would make my zero adjustment, drop that load by a grain, and shoot it again.


I'm not sure what your barrel length is, but in my experience with 280ai and that combo, that's ripping. I suspect you're over pressure.

Thanks for your reply. I usually use the Hornady Edition 11 and the Nosler load data as references. The Hornady manual with the 280 AI, H4831, and 162 bullet weight shows the max of 59.3 grains at 2800 fps, and the Nosler load data shows H4831 max 59.0 at 2972 fps. The Nosler data is with a 26” barrel, and I’m using a 22” barrel. Subtracting 100 fps (25 fps per inch), the Nosler max velocity data is at 2872, which is still above what I’m at.

I can drop down .4-.5 grains, and get in the upper 2800 fps range, I doubt the critter will care. I do handload in a safe manner, but it’s tough when the three resources I use may vary 200 fps for their max velocities.

Thanks for your feedback.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Thanks for your reply. I usually use the Hornady Edition 11 and the Nosler load data as references. The Hornady manual with the 280 AI, H4831, and 162 bullet weight shows the max of 59.3 grains at 2800 fps, and the Nosler load data shows H4831 max 59.0 at 2972 fps. The Nosler data is with a 26” barrel, and I’m using a 22” barrel. Subtracting 100 fps (25 fps per inch), the Nosler max velocity data is at 2872, which is still above what I’m at.

I should have specified Hodgdon's published max, I usually just go there as I primarily use their extremes and haven't had issues with their publishings.

I can drop down .4-.5 grains, and get in the upper 2800 fps range, I doubt the critter will care. I do handload in a safe manner, but it’s tough when the three resources I use may vary 200 fps for their max velocities.

Yeah, I hate that. I was loading 58.4gr and getting 2820 after 200 rounds out of a 24" Bartlein with a brake, so 2900 out of a 22 sounds spicy to me lol.

 

[Bomberodevil]

I should have specified Hodgdon's published max, I usually just go there as I primarily use their extremes and haven't had issues with their publishings.


Yeah, I hate that. I was loading 58.4gr and getting 2820 after 200 rounds out of a 24" Bartlein with a brake, so 2900 out of a 22 sounds spicy to me lol.

My most accurate load with this bullet, powder and primer and with Nosler brass instead of Peterson brass was .410 moa with 58.8 grains with a 3-round group. I was trying to shoot a larger group per the Painless method with the new Peterson brass. Maybe I’ll just drop back to 58.8 of H4831 and try a 10-round group there.

 

[wind gypsy]

Are all the 280AI reamers typically SAAMI or are are there different throat dimensions commonly chosen?
I ask because that 59 gr neighborhood isn't very hot for 7 SAUM throated for heavies and the two cases are very close in case capacity.

It looks like the 280AI SAAMI throat design doesn't have any freebore, just a taper starting immediately in front of the case mouth. Guess that makes sense why a custom SAUM chamber could be loaded hotter.

 

[Harvey_NW]

Are all the 280AI reamers typically SAAMI or are are there different throat dimensions commonly chosen?
I ask because that 59 gr neighborhood isn't very hot for 7 SAUM throated for heavies and the two cases are very close in case capacity.

It looks like the 280AI SAAMI throat design doesn't have any freebore in the typical sense, just an taper starting immediately in front of the case mouth.

The throat diameter is .2856" at the end of that taper, and there's a reference dimension of 2.7540" on the drawing. When doing my research that reference dimension correlated with lots of peoples SAAMI reamer dimensions I found on forums with a freebore of .179", but there is no "set" dimension. My 280AI was SAAMI and I was jumping a fair bit being in a Tikka mag. Never saw any signs of pressure loaded up to 59gr, but the fact that Hodgdon changed their book max to 56.4 always concerned me.

 

[wind gypsy]

The throat diameter is .2856" at the end of that taper, and there's a reference dimension of 2.7540" on the drawing. When doing my research that reference dimension correlated with lots of peoples SAAMI reamer dimensions I found on forums with a freebore of .179", but there is no "set" dimension. My 280AI was SAAMI and I was jumping a fair bit being in a Tikka mag. Never saw any signs of pressure loaded up to 59gr, but the fact that Hodgdon changed their book max to 56.4 always concerned me.

I'm used to the taper being referred to as "leade". Different starting diameters and different angles obviously impact the distance to where a bullet jams in the lands. I think of freebore as a cylinder larger than bullet diameter until the leade starts. So one could have zero freebore but still not have a "short throat".

The 0.179" number referred to on 280 AI is the length of the leade, from where it starts @ 0.2856" to where it has tapered below groove diameter of 0.277 (I'm assuming groove, might be the bore diameter of 0.2837?).



Compare that to 7 PRC Print (with throat designed similar to most custom reamers) https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...Precision-Rifle-Cartridge-2022-06-16-rev1.pdf where the leade is only 0.1451" but it has 0.2333" freebore before the leade even starts. Which is why it makes sense now after i looked why a SAAMI 280 AI chamber would build pressure faster than what ive seen with similar capacity cartridges that have a longer throat.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

I'd also ask - if the idea that case fill is a big factor in giving uniform velocities, why do relatively low fill rates seem to be top performers when it comes to consistency at times? One example is popularity of H4350 with heavies in cases like 300wsm and 7saum - fill rate isn't high and they seem to be remarkably consistent. I've seen similar with varget in 6.5x47.

I would love to hear additional experts' advice on this topic. Looking at this Berger load data for .25-06AI you quickly see some powders like RE-26 with relatively low fill rates with more performance "potential" re: room in the case for more powder. However, you have others like Retumbo that are at 106%, and supposed to be consistent/precise.

I've heard both sides of this debate as well, and the most recent advice I received was that higher fil % provides more consistent powder column and ignition vs. loose or gapped powder columns. This seems logical, but I'd love to hear an argument to the contrary (especially before I select powder for my new barrel). Then there's the question of availability and temp. sensitivity/stability. Too many damn rabbit holes..

 

[prm]

I have used SR 308 for comps where pushing pressures very high, and SR 6XC the last few years down to -21° or -28° F with no issues. However this 22CM and at least these powders have been a problem now, but weren’t 8-9 months ago, which points to it being on the edge of reliability.

For me, I will use LR primers from now on.

I may have missed, but have you seen issues with SR primers and 6.5 CM? Only reason I ask is availability of LR primers. I have enough for quite awhile, but stocking up has proven a challenge. I can get brass and SR primers.
I can use LR for hunting and SR for regular shooting.

 

[mddat]

I may have missed, but have you seen issues with SR primers and 6.5 CM? Only reason I ask is availability of LR primers. I have enough for quite awhile, but stocking up has proven a challenge. I can get brass and SR primers.
I can use LR for hunting and SR for regular shooting.

@Formidilosus

I also have the same question

 

[woods89]

@Formidilosus

I also have the same question

Also interested. I've used SR in a 6.5 CM for a few years now,with no issues, but I don't know that my ammo has ever been cold soaked at 10* or less.

 

[Formidilosus]

I haven’t had issues with SR primer 6XC, 6.5cm, or 308. Just 22CM. Don’t know why, but I’m not interested in finickyness and won’t use SR in the future.