Painless load development (mine)

[success]

1996 Remington 700 sendero 25-06

110gr Hornady eldx loaded to mag length
H4831
Winchester LRP
New ppu brass

Hornady book max is 56.2gr

Start at 56gr?

 

[wind gypsy]

1996 Remington 700 sendero 25-06

110gr Hornady eldx loaded to mag length
H4831
Winchester LRP
New ppu brass

Hornady book max is 56.2gr

Start at 56gr?

PPU brass typically has lower capacity. Hornady typically is mid to high capacity. If that generalization holds true for 25-06, your plan would be a bad idea.

Here’s an example of a guy who’s results you don’t want to duplicate

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[Formidilosus]

Hey guys,

What would you guys do if you go past published min/max load data and still dont have pressure signs?

Check velocity. Velocity is pressure.

 

[Juno07]

The main factors I'd be considering:
- what is h20 case capacity of the brass you are using vs what is typically seen in the brass brand used in the load manual. This impacts how much pressure it builts
- what is the velocity of your ammo compared to listed max loads with that bullet, corrected for barrel length discrepancies.

In general 300 wm "published" data is garbage for the average loader who has no concept of chamber, brass, barrel variances that may cause differences in pressure because there is a shit ton of variance in brass between manufacturers and chambers as well.

Typically if you're not getting signs with (usually) soft hornady brass, you're probably not crazy high on pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if your second firing showed more speed/pressure though. Some of that energy usually gets used up blowing the shoulders forward on virgin wm brass.

Ah ok, ill borrow a chrono and see what the rounds deliver

 

[Juno07]

Ah ok, ill borrow a chrono and see what the rounds deliver

So i borrowed a chrono and found my load....averaged 2870 fps over 16 rounds for a 180ttsx grouping roughly 3/4" at 100...perfectly fine for my uses! Settled on 71 grains of h4831 with a magazine limit for my COAL of 3.4"

 

[Formidilosus]

650 rounds without cleaning. Last group was 7 shots at .6 MOA.

Trying 103gr ELD-X with H4350. Loaded one round at max- no pressure, one at 1 grain over max- only the faintest ejector mark. Dropped .5gr and loaded 15. Will group at 100 yards tomorrow and true velocity.

 

[Formidilosus]

The load is at pressure, not excessive, but there. Shoots fine.





10” target at 962 yards for velocity trueing. Started at a guessed 2,950fps knowing it would be low, trued out to 3,170fps.

This rifle has been shot with-

115gr DTAC, IMR 4166
115gr DTAC, RL23
112gr Barnes MatchBurner, RL23
108gr Hornady ELD-M, IMR 4166
108gr Hornady ELD-M, RL23
103gr ELD-X, H4350

Following the exact procedures outlined in this thread.

The largest 10 round group fired at 100 yards has been .92 MOA. It is at 650 rounds on the barrel with zero cleaning being done, and has been used to kill game animals from less then 60 yards to 970 yards with three of those four different bullets, by three different hunters.

 

[success]

Can you post pictures of the pressure sign you saw? Also what is velocity truing?

 

[Hagas4all]

The load is at pressure, not excessive, but there. Shoots fine.


View attachment 565706


10” target at 962 yards for velocity trueing. Started at a guessed 2,950fps knowing it would be low, trued out to 3,170fps.

This rifle has been shot with-

115gr DTAC, IMR 4166
115gr DTAC, RL23
112gr Barnes MatchBurner, IMR 4166
108gr Hornady ELD-M, IMR 4166
108gr Hornady ELD-M, RL23
103gr ELD-X, H4350

Following the exact procedures outlined in this thread.

The largest 10 round group fired at 100 yards has been .92 MOA. It is at 650 rounds on the barrel with zero cleaning being done, and has been used to kill game animals from less then 60 yards to 970 yards with three of those four different bullets, by three different hunters.

Noticing in you seem to only focus on COAL. Do you care about BTO or if your in the lands?

 

[Formidilosus]

Can you post pictures of the pressure sign you saw? Also what is velocity truing?

I’ll attempt to, it’ll be hard to see in a pic.

Velocity trueing is where you have a solid zero, then go to longer range, usually close to transonic zone (approx. 1,340fps impact) and adjust until elevation is correct. Then, adjust the MV velocity in the ballistic program until the output it gives is what was required to hit. With a known scope, known load, and decent conditions it is a way to not need a chronograph.

Noticing in you seem to only focus on COAL. Do you care about BTO or if your in the lands?

No, I do not care about BTO or distance to lands. If you haven’t read the whole thread, I would suggest that.

 

[Castle Rock]

Any preferences between the elds in a creed between the 130 and 147 for deer out to say 600?

 

[Go West Old Man]

I’ll attempt to, it’ll be hard to see in a pic.

Velocity trueing is where you have a solid zero, then go to longer range, usually close to transonic zone (approx. 1,340fps impact) and adjust until elevation is correct. Then, adjust the MV velocity in the ballistic program until the output it gives is what was required to hit.

@Formidilosus
Just to clarify, ….. you are saying to adjust the MV in the ballistics program (such as GeoBallistics?) so that the program data output or table equals the elevation turret adjustment you just made to hit at your long range target as was seen in the video, correct? In other words, make an override to the ballistic programs usual calculations for outputs because you just made a real, live, on-site correction? Some of us slow thinkers need explanations sometimes.. Thanks.

 

[BjornF16]

Just to clarify, ….. you are saying to adjust the MV in the ballistics program (such as GeoBallistics?) so that the program data output or table equals the elevation turret adjustment you just made to hit at your long range target as was seen in the video, correct? In other words, make an override to the ballistic programs usual calculations for outputs because you just made a real, live, on-site correction? Some of us slow thinkers need explanations sometimes.. Thanks.

The bullet doesn’t lie…but your chronograph might.

You’re not really “overriding the ballistics programs usual calculations”. Your updating an input (mv) to get the usual ballistics output (elevation).

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus
Just to clarify, ….. you are saying to adjust the MV in the ballistics program (such as GeoBallistics?) so that the program data output or table equals the elevation turret adjustment you just made to hit at your long range target as was seen in the video, correct? In other words, make an override to the ballistic programs usual calculations for outputs because you just made a real, live, on-site correction? Some of us slow thinkers need explanations sometimes.. Thanks.

Correct. I guessed at the initial MV and then shot. First two shots were a mil high (6.6 mils). Adjusted down, then shot three more (5.6 mils) . Those three were .2 mil low. Correction needed to hit was 5.8 mils.

Now, to be clear this is a short way to do trueing. For all the same reasons that three shots aren’t a real group, three to five shots trueing isn’t either. Normally you take a fresh painted steel target, spray a “waterline” across it (a horizontal line), then shoot and adjust until your group is centered vertically on that water line. You are only looking at vertical, you can ignore the horizontal.

 

[Formidilosus]

@Formidilosus
Just to clarify, ….. you are saying to adjust the MV in the ballistics program (such as GeoBallistics?) so that the program data output or table equals the elevation turret adjustment you just made to hit at your long range target as was seen in the video, correct? In other words, make an override to the ballistic programs usual calculations for outputs because you just made a real, live, on-site correction? Some of us slow thinkers need explanations sometimes.. Thanks.

A couple of old pictures.

This is a “waterline”. You aiming in the center of the waterline-




This is a rifle that was being trued-




Ignore the horizontal grouping- that doesn’t matter for trueing. In this case the group was .1 mil low looking through the scope. I believe initially I shot 4.0 mils. So final elevation needed to be 4.1 mils. Adjust MV until the app matches 4.1 mils at this range.

 

[Go West Old Man]

A couple of old pictures.

This is a “waterline”. You aiming in the center of the waterline-

View attachment 565963


This is a rifle that was being trued-

View attachment 565964


Ignore the horizontal grouping- that doesn’t matter for trueing. In this case the group was .1 mil low looking through the scope. I believe initially I shot 4.0 mils. So final elevation needed to be 4.1 mils. Adjust MV until the app matches 4.1 mils at this range.

Got it. Thanks. Therefore, in this real “waterline “ scenario you increased the MV slightly to your ballistics app/program no matter what a chronograph (might’ve) said, because as @BjornF16 said the bullets don’t lie.

 

[Formidilosus]

Got it. Thanks. Therefore, in this real “waterline “ scenario you increased the MV slightly to your ballistics app/program no matter what a chronograph (might’ve) said, because as @BjornF16 said the bullets don’t lie.

That’s correct. If the chronograph is giving correct readings, and if you shoot enough rounds over it to get an average (20-30 shots), and if your scope adjusts 100% correctly or you know what the error is, and if you use the correct BC, and if you have a 100% zero, etc, etc. Then using a chrono to input MV that it gives into the ballistic app will result in good, usable ballistic data. Some, or all of the same things applies to “trueing”, however trueing let’s you skip the chrono, and if there is an error in the system somewhere, trueing absorbs it to some level. Generally unless there is a large error, error gets accounted for in the trueing, and inside of the range it was trued will not result in a miss on a 10-12” target.

 

[PineBrook413]

Trying this method with my 7 prc, hope I can simplify my load development!


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[willfrye027]

Here’s a couple more using forms painless method.

New tikka 25 creedmoor prefit with 134gr Eld M. Backed off a tad from pressure and shot 10 rounds:


22 creedmoor PVA prefit 88 Eld m. Barrel was clean (couldn’t help myself) and is not quite free floated which might be causing some of the vertical




Same barrel with h4350. Need to go back and try this with more shots and see if it’s really that much tighter.



No messing with seating depth or small groups with incremental charge increases. Pretty confident now those things don’t make a difference for what I’m doing.

 

[PineBrook413]

Curious if anyone has some input on my progress using this process. I am looking for something close to 1 MOA @ 100 yards.

Tikka Action, Proof Research pre-fit 26" 1:8, 7mm PRC approx 100 rounds down the tube so far.

I loaded up retumbo 3 charges to check pressure. Then loaded 10 @ .5 grains below the first sign of pressure.

I wasn't able to measure group at the range I was shooting at but the group was not good. probably something like 2".

Did the same process for H1000 and ended up with 2-3/8" group at 100. (175eld-x)

I tested MAG PRO for pressure and then loaded up 10 more, will shoot those tomorrow. (175eld-x)

Would you switch to another powder or ditch the 175's and try some 162 eld-x I have? I have LRT powder, RL 26 and a little Magnum powder I could try. Was really hoping h1000 or retumbo would work.