Paid load development flop, wwyd?

[MeatMissile]

Who can hold 7” at 600 yards with the excitement of taking a game animal? Must be a lot of cold blooded killers out there. My hat is off to all those who can.


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It’s not really holding 7”. Its 7” of spread over what you can already hold. So if your group size is 8” at 600, and any give shot can go 7” high or low, you’re really starting to open it up.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Who can hold 7” at 600 yards with the excitement of taking a game animal? Must be a lot of cold blooded killers out there. My hat is off to all those who can.


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The 7” I mentioned isn’t what I’m saying a person would hold to. A 100 fps difference in the load I used for that example with that particular bullet will have a drop difference of 7”. That is in addition to how well the shooter and rifle can group. That means that if you can hold to 1 MOA (roughly) your group at that range would be 6” or, 3” from center in any direction. Then add another 7” to that for a possible bullet strike of 10” off of point of aim. That’s worst case if you and everything else about the rifle/load can hold 1 MOA. Make it 3 MOA and you miss POA by as much as 16”.

 

[Wyobohunter]

It’s a drag for sure. I do respect the fact that people who shoot at longer ranges try to get their gear squared away as much as they do.

For the record, I screw around and shoot at steel, paper and prairie dogs way farther out than I’d shoot at an elk. My 30-06 is only doped to 440 yards. My .338 RUM is doped to 550 IIRC. Not really long range by today’s standards. I just want to know that that premium bullet is going to hit where I want it to.

Edit: the .338 is doped to 500 yds.

 

[MattB]

It will not group well at long range if the ES is 100 fps. That’s his concern. Run two shots through any ballistics calculator and you’ll see what I mean. Wait… I’ll do it.

With this load the difference is nearly 7” at 600 yards just from a 100 fps change. That doesn’t account for other variables. I’d expect more if I paid that kind of money.

Edit: reading my own post, it “sounds” terse in the wrong way. I didn’t mean that way.

*If* it is 100 fps. What if the OP was to actually shoot 600 yards and the load groups and he determines the issue is with his chronographs (the load developer had a 24 fps es on his chronograph)?

Let me ask it another way: if you developed a LR load for a client and they came to you and said that the load meets the accuracy potential at 100 and 200 yards but they were absolutely certain it wouldn't at 600 yards because of what their chrono suggested. Would you happily refund their money if they had never actually shot it at 600 yards? F no you wouldn't.

 

[Billinsd]

So I recently had a new custom 6.5 prc built. I don’t like the load development part of reloading so immediately after the gun was built I had it shipped to an outfit for load development. Said entity will remain nameless as I’m trying to work this matter out with him now.

Eventually I get the rifle back, with the load recipe and 160 loaded rounds, loaded by this outfit, per this recipe, so I’d have enough ammo to get me going and brass to reload on my own later. Whole shebang was roughly $1400-1500, including the ammo and components used during load development (most of that was ammo and component cost).

Long story short, the ammo is accurate at short range. It will do 1/2 moa, and 3/4 easy at 100 yards. Everything seemed ok at first and I was satisfied when I first shot the gun and ammo. Then came time to cut dope and I got out the chronograph. Things went south from there.

90-100 es over 10-12 shots. Yes, with ample barrel cooling. And sometimes the fastest shots were after cooling and the slowest were on a warm barrel. Speed was just erratic, with no logical pattern. Mind you, this was with his loaded ammo, not ammo I loaded per his recipe. So my reloading process can’t be blamed. Ok, so I thought my shoot thru chrono was going wonky with light too bright or something and giving sporadic readings. I chocked it up to the chrono after that first range trip.

I was wrong. Next range trip I brought my Magnetospeed. And I brought two other rifles with known good loads. Yep, same thing, 90-100 es.

You paid a hell of a lot of money for load development ammo that's as good as mass produced factory ammo or worse. If you shoot at less than 400 yes no big deal but you didn't pay for that. I generally do pretty much everything myself, because it's extremely difficult to find quality work, from ethical competent people. I don't blame you for not wanting to drive all the way out to freeking Yuma to witness how awful your groups will be at long range. Nothing an intelligent guy like you'd do for grins, not me neither!! FYI Pala is long range and about 40 miles away. It's a big hassle to go there. In fact don't try shooting at 600 yards just for grins, too much trouble and physics doesn't lie, so a waste of time. I absolutely hate reloading, but I've gotten burned like you. If you want to do anything right you got to do it yourself, especially if you are a perfectionist or have OCD like me. So, yeah, I reload. 90 fps es is just crap! 50 is crap! You are an extremely intelligent guy, you know you got screwed. What to do about it is your question. I'd ask to send your rifle and ammo back and have the guy DOCUMENT by shooting 10 rounds and showing the es is 24fps. Have him take photos or a video of the chronograph shots and velocities. Tell him if he can document the 30 es or less, you will apologize profusely and pay for the return shipping and $200 for his time. If he can't document 30 es for 10 shots, he gives you a refund and pays both shipping costs. By the way 6.5 PRCs are hard to find an accurate load, they are supposed to be real finicky. I was going to buy one, glad I didn't. Good luck!!

 

[Rifles And More]

I'm afraid the ship has sailed on the custom ammo experiment for the OP. Shoot it, don't shoot it, whatever. Chalk it up to a learning experience and move on.

When it comes to your LR hunting ammo, remember what Thanos said -

 

[bsnedeker]

I'm afraid the ship has sailed on the custom ammo experiment for the OP. Shoot it, don't shoot it, whatever. Chalk it up to a learning experience and move on.

When it comes to your LR hunting ammo, remember what Thanos said -
View attachment 397808

I mean, I wouldn't trust anyone else with SHORT RANGE hunting ammo either...lol! I've got my process and I don't trust anyone other than myself to do it to my standards....that's with a bunch of stuff, not just reloading.

 

[weaver]

I’d load a few cases with his recipe and see what it does.
Could be he had a 24 es when working up the load then got careless when doing the bulk loading.
In that case I’d find a way to shoot the rest of his loads then load my own. Not ideal but at least you get 6.5 prc brass out of the deal. Not easy to find these days!


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[Rifles And More]

I mean, I wouldn't trust anyone else with SHORT RANGE hunting ammo either...lol! I've got my process and I don't trust anyone other than myself to do it to my standards....that's with a bunch of stuff, not just reloading.

That's where I am.

 

[Wyobohunter]

*If* it is 100 fps. What if the OP was to actually shoot 600 yards and the load groups and he determines the issue is with his chronographs (the load developer had a 24 fps es on his chronograph)?

Let me ask it another way: if you developed a LR load for a client and they came to you and said that the load meets the accuracy potential at 100 and 200 yards but they were absolutely certain it wouldn't at 600 yards because of what their chrono suggested. Would you happily refund money if they had never actually shot it at 600 yards?

The OP tested his chronograph with a known consistent load and verified the results with a second chronograph. He did more due diligence than should be expected. It is irrelevant that it groups well at 100 yards. A 100 fps spread guarantees it will not group well at long range. It’s just simple physics. I’d say to the seller “stand behind your product or expect me to share my experience”. That’s what the OP wanted to know, remember the thread title? WWYD. You’d clearly accept what you were sold. I wouldn’t. We aren’t having a contest are we? I’m not personally invested in his decision; are you?

 

[JGRaider]

Great example as to why I would never even consider paying someone to sight in, load develop, mount a scope, etc for my rifles. Seems like a very bad idea.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Great example as to why I would never even consider paying someone to sight in, load develop, mount a scope, etc for my rifles. Seems like a very bad idea.

100%

They will never be as invested in the results as you will.

 

[SDHNTR]

I hear ya. I normally do all this stuff myself because I am a perfectionist. I weigh and measure each charge, brass and round meticulously. But with 6.5 prc brass and H1000 and similar so hard to get these days I figured I’d be ahead of the game paying a pro. Lesson learned.

I’d happily load a few up to his recipe to see how it goes but I need some H1000. The other issue is I can’t find a Redding type S (my preferred) die now either. It’s all easier said than done right now. Frustrating.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Times are tough man. If the powder in his loads isn’t compressed you could disassemble and reuse everything.

 

[MeatMissile]

I hear ya. I normally do all this stuff myself because I am a perfectionist. I weigh and measure each charge, brass and round meticulously. But with 6.5 prc brass and H1000 and similar so hard to get these days I figured I’d be ahead of the game paying a pro. Lesson learned.

I’d happily load a few up to his recipe to see how it goes but I need some H1000. The other issue is I can’t find a Redding type S (my preferred) die now either. It’s all easier said than done right now. Frustrating.

Does this person have an ammunition manufacturer’s license?

 

[bsnedeker]

Does this person have an ammunition manufacturer’s license?

The ATF has entered the chat.

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[Rckymtnshooter]

I have a friend that is quite successful at 1000 yard bench rest competition. I was talking with him about precision loading techniques. One of the things he talked about was es. Testing your loads at long-range and how surprisingly how well higher es loads can shoot at long range.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I have a friend that is quite successful at 1000 yard bench rest competition. I was talking with him about precision loading techniques. One of the things he talked about was es. Testing your loads at long-range and how surprisingly how well higher es loads can shoot at long range.

What does he consider high es? I’d be pretty shocked if he’d accept 100 fps.

 

[Rckymtnshooter]

I dont recall the exact number. His point was that you have to shoot at long range to know what the load will do and a higher es didn't always rule out a load. He talked about starting your load development at 600 yards and felt that 100 yard load development for long range shooting was not worth the time.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I dont recall the exact number. His point was that you have to shoot at long range to know what the load will do and a higher es didn't always rule out a load. He talked about starting your load development at 600 yards and felt that 100 yard load development for long range shooting was not worth the time.

I’m not a BR shooter. But he’s 100% right, you have to shoot the load long range. A low es will not necessarily make an accurate load. “High” is a subjective term. To him “high” is likely 40 fps. Humans can’t transcend physics.