Paid load development flop, wwyd?

[Rifles And More]

Buying a chrono was one of my worst investments, just makes me overthink stuff. He would have been perfectly happy with this ammo if he didn't run it through a chrono.

The other really bad investment for me was a borescope. I was perfectly happy with my cleaning process and accuracy until I actually looked at it with that scope...lol.

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I've avoided a borescope for that reason!

 

[SDHNTR]

I hear y’all. Believe me, I’m not asking for perfection. If the ES were even 40-50 and the accuracy was good, this question would probably have never come up. But this spread is more than twice that. Trying to cut a dope chart becomes a tough call on what fps to use and it sure seems like shooting for drops would only leave me chasing my tail. How would I know if it were me that missed or hit, or was it a round on one end or the other of the ES?

I realize that some of this is on me for not specifically vocalizing my exact expectations up front, but I also figured that someone putting themselves out there as a load developer and producer of custom ammo would have tighter tolerances and an acceptable level of consistency would go without saying. We did discuss how I wanted high bc bullets used and longer range hunting was my objective. I didn’t think I needed to spell it all out for him. No professional likes it when a layman tells him how his job should be done. This outfit has been in biz for a long time too. I think we are both surprised at these results. I just did more quantitative testing than he did. I’m hoping he offers a reasonable solution without a fuss.

For those of you saying it’s all in my head and just shoot it, sorry, I didn’t buy a custom 6.5 prc to limit myself to 300 yards where this variance wouldn’t matter. And ethically I can’t allow myself to take long range shots at an animal if either me or my gear is not properly prepared for the task.

 

[bsnedeker]

I hear y’all. Believe me, I’m not asking for perfection. If the ES were even 40-50 and the accuracy was good, this question would probably have never come up. But this spread is more than twice that. Trying to cut a dope chart becomes a tough call on what fps to use and it sure seems like shooting for drops would only leave me chasing my tail. How would I know if it were me that missed or hit, or was it a round on one end or the other of the ES?

I realize that some of this is on me for not specifically vocalizing my exact expectations up front, but I also figured that someone putting themselves out there as a load developer and producer of custom ammo would have tighter tolerances and an acceptable level of consistency would go without saying. We did discuss how I wanted high bc bullets used and longer range hunting was my objective. I didn’t think I needed to spell it all out for him. No professional likes it when a layman tells him how his job should be done. This outfit has been in biz for a long time too. I think we are both surprised at these results. I just did more quantitative testing than he did. I’m hoping he offers a reasonable solution without a fuss.

For those of you saying it’s all in my head and just shoot it, sorry, I didn’t buy a custom 6.5 prc to limit myself to 300 yards where this variance wouldn’t matter. And ethically I can’t allow myself to take long range shots at an animal if either me or my gear is not properly prepared for the task.

Sounds like you should do your own load development in that case.

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[Wyobohunter]

How does the ammo group at long range?

It will not group well at long range if the ES is 100 fps. That’s his concern. Run two shots through any ballistics calculator and you’ll see what I mean. Wait… I’ll do it.

With this load the difference is nearly 7” at 600 yards just from a 100 fps change. That doesn’t account for other variables. I’d expect more if I paid that kind of money.

Edit: reading my own post, it “sounds” terse in the wrong way. I didn’t mean that way.

 

[SDHNTR]

It will not group well at long range if the ES is 100 fps. That’s his concern. Run two shots through any ballistics calculator and you’ll see what I mean. Wait… I’ll do it.

With this load the difference is nearly 7” at 600 yards just from a 100 fps change. That doesn’t account for other variables. I’d expect more if I paid that kind of money.

Bingo! Nailed it.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I would never be ok with a 100 fps ES when developing a load… for the same exact reasons you stated above and especially if you are near max I wouldn’t even consider it safe. Anything much over 40 is too much IMO. I want to be supremely confident that if I miss a practice shot it was me. Not the load, not the rifle. Then I practice at longer ranges than I’d shoot at game. I personally don’t believe you can have too much information and feel that the chronograph is a must have. I’d ask for a refund and do the work yourself. If he won’t do that I’d let him try to fix it. If he won’t do that I’d share his name. That is not acceptable for “custom ammo”. It is tedious to work up an excellent load, but I think it’s worth it.

 

[cjl2010]

You guys ever shot at distance with a tuned load of 50fps or more ES?

 

[Wyobohunter]

You guys ever shot at distance with a tuned load of 50fps or more ES?

I personally wouldn’t consider a load “tuned” if the ES was 50 fps or more. That’s not because I think I’m some kind of super sniper. I’d just rather cut the variables to minimum so I know a miss or bad group is due to my shooting that day. If I had the tools, time, money and ability to make my rifles shoot 1,000 yard 1 hole 10 shot groups I would…

 

[cjl2010]

I personally wouldn’t consider a load “tuned” if the ES was 50 fps or more. That’s not because I think I’m some kind of super sniper. I’d just rather cut the variables to minimum so I know a miss or bad group is due to my shooting that day. If I had the tools, time, money and ability to make my rifles shoot 1,000 yard 1 hole 10 shot groups I would…

Erik Cortina made a big deal about his just over an inch group at a 1000 yards that he filmed. That load he shot over the chrono had a 20+fps ES. It’s easy to plug shit into a calculator and try to determine results. Shoot it at distance and see what it does.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Erik Cortina made a big deal about his just over an inch group at a 1000 yards that he filmed. That load he shot over the chrono had a 20+fps ES. It’s easy to plug shit into a calculator and try to determine results. Shoot it at distance and see what it does.

20 is 5x more than 100. That 7” difference would cut to… awe hell. Hold on…

1.3” at 600 yards. Any small group at distance when you have a known ES of 100 fps is suspect.

 

[h2so4]

I just looked at my velocity notes from my Black Hills Gold 30-06 loads- one load had a max spread of 22 fps and the other had 16 fps.

I’d say the guy needs to step up
And do something about it.

 

[cjl2010]

20 is 5x more than 100. That 7” difference would cut to… awe hell. Hold on.

Make sure you include spin drift and coriolis.

 

[Wyobohunter]

Make sure you include spin drift and coriolis.

I realize you are joking… but seriously, 100 fps is significant. That super nerd shit you mentioned doesn’t come into play at normal human ranges, a large difference in shot to shot velocity does. Especially if you paid someone good money to develop the load.

Reminds me of a picture an acquaintance sent to me from the range. His 100 yard target was covered with a “pattern”. One of them hit the bullseye. He was pretty proud of that

 

[MeatMissile]

Could it be that he developed a load and cut corners on the rest of the charges to bust it out faster? Most of the powders I use don’t meter worth a damn, so I measure every charge. One way to figure out would be to follow his recipe and be real meticulous.

 

[cjl2010]

I realize you are joking… but seriously, 100 fps is significant. That super nerd shit you mentioned doesn’t come into play at normal human ranges, a large difference in shot to shot velocity does. Especially if you paid someone good money to develop the load.

Reminds me of a picture an acquaintance sent me from the range. His 100 yard target was covered with a “pattern”. One of them hit the bullseye. He was pretty proud of that

I do my own load development. I use pretty good equipment. Some of the posted ES I see are unicorn level. If the dude is paying $5 a round, that takes Approx 46 rounds to cover the cost of his magneto sporter and teslong. Shoot a few rounds at distance to verify it shoots or doesn’t shoot.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I’m 100% sympathetic to the OP here (as if that wasn’t obvious). He paid for something and didn’t get it. If I pay good money for something marketed as “custom”, it damned well better be worth the money. Any off the shelf ammo will shoot at least that consistent.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I do my own load development. I use pretty good equipment. Some of the posted ES I see are unicorn level. If the dude is paying $5 a round, that takes Approx 46 rounds to cover the cost of his magneto sporter and teslong. Shoot a few rounds at distance to verify it shoots or doesn’t shoot.

I would probably shoot it too. And I’d do my best… but…. Nope, physics is physics. Even if a few test shots seemed to shoot well I’d still have some healthy suspicion. I’d want to shoot that load a whole bunch and it probably wouldn’t be worth the trouble to me as I’d never stop working on a load with that much variation.

 

[MeatMissile]

I’m 100% sympathetic to the OP here (as if that wasn’t obvious). He paid for something and didn’t get it. If I pay good money for something marketed as “custom”, it damned well better be worth the money. Any off the shelf ammo will shoot at least that consistent.

It’s a drag for sure. I do respect the fact that people who shoot at longer ranges try to get their gear squared away as much as they do.

I handload, but I realize for my shooting skill, the value is the terminal performance I get out of premium bullets (at a lower cost per round for said bullets) vs raw accuracy. It’s not too hard to make minute-of-pie plate @400 ammo.

 

[WKR]

I would start by pulling some bullets and weighing the powder charge to see if they are consistent, 100 fps quite the spread.

 

[gbflyer]

Bingo! Nailed it.

Who can hold 7” at 600 yards with the excitement of taking a game animal? Must be a lot of cold blooded killers out there. My hat is off to all those who can.


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