Most reliable and shootable 9mm semi auto pistols

[zdc1775]

Where does a Springfield hellcat fall in terms of reliability and shoot ability?

I have a Hellcat Pro that was my carry gun for about a year and it was fairly reliable if you cleaned it every 1,000 rounds or so. Also it isn't as easy to shoot fast accurately as the P365 XL.

My biggest issue with it has been the trigger and the what made me stop carrying it was when I managed to outrun the action with the trigger during a shooting competition which required some fairly time consuming remedial action to get the gun back into action. I've since replaced the factory trigger with an Apex trigger and I haven't been able to replicate that malfunction but it certainly made me lose my confidence since then, but I still have it and take to the range and to classes occasionally so maybe it will re-earn my trust at some point.

 

[Choupique]

Backcountry carry is an interesting topic. I never found a comfortable or convenient way to carry.

Chest holster under everything else is what I've found works best for me. The smaller the pistol the better.

I did it with a blackhawk .45 for a few years, so it should be pretty easy with the relatively light and compact automatics being discussed here. This will be my first year doing it with a 365 and I suspect it'll be pretty fantastic compared to the ol hog leg.

 

[Lonewolf72]

Military Shoulder Holster

Carry firearms bandoleer-style with our military shoulder holster made of ballistic nylon. With adjustable straps, the over the shoulder gun holster fits most.

elitesurvival.com

Chest rigs...the Elite Survival Systems Military Shoulder Holster was a solution for many of us before we knew about the Kenai chest rigs.The bottom of the holster attaches to your belt to keep from flopping around. I recall it being one of the more simple, comfortable and inexpensive solutions at the time. Perhaps not the most secure-feeling option by itself...I can only see this as being more secure with a bino harness over it.

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

Food for thought. Thumb safeties are useless for most modern striker fired pistols. The thumb safety is meant to make the gun drop-safe, not negligent handling safe. Glocks, S&W M&PS, FN, and other modern striker fired handguns used hinges and blades on the triggers along with other designs to make them drop safe.

Goal and use:
- probably won't conceal carry - Go mid to full size. ie G19 and up. CCW focused guns are harder to shoot well.

- mostly for backpacking, hunting, etc. So, lightweight. Not so small it hinders shootability. Again, G19 and up in size. You are already going to have the inconvenience of strapping a holster to your body or pack and carrying a gun. The incremental increase in size and weight will not be much more inconvenient to carry, but will help a lot in how easy it is to shoot well. Holsters are what takes up the most space IMO.

- great in reliability in factory (or nearly) form. I want a Tikka pistol. Shoot it dirty for it's life and it still works - Staccato is really more of a race gun. the 2011 style handguns are not designed for what you are looking for. Think of them like a racecar whereas the Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs etc. are more like working vehicles. 2011's generally are viewed as needing parts replaced and definitely need to be cleaned and lubricated more often. They shoot very nice, but I would not want one that might get dusty, sandy, etc.

- shootability - I've read Glocks are not particularly shootable. I personally disagree. The modern shooting grip was heavily influenced by the Glock grip angle. The bore axis is very low which helps control recoil. Glocks are incredibly shootable. Lots of people suck at shooting and blame the gun. M&P is also a great shooter. Sig P320 has high bore axis but still shoots decent.

- speed - That's mostly up to your skill rather than the gun selection. The exception being a tiny gun would be more difficult to become faster with.

- I don't really want to "need" to upgrade. One and done purchase. You can buy everything you are considering with nice sights and leave everything else stock. In fact, tinkering with internals often makes them less reliable. Nice sights are an exception to that rule. One other exception being you can change out the P320's grip to a different one and not mess with reliability.

- not sure on optic ... If it truly would help with speed and accuracy, then maybe. But it's another failure point to deal with. If you are willing to practice a lot, get an optic. If not, it will likely be too difficult to find your reticle when presenting to shoot. It takes quite a bit of getting use to.

- prefer to have manual safety. See my opening paragraph. 1911's needed this because they were a super light single action trigger. The safety made them drop safe. Glocks and other similar modern designed are drop safe due to other designs. Still, if you really really think you must have one, the S&W M&P's or the Sig M18 would be good choices. I would avoid the grip safeties. I have had issues with the grip safety not always depressing on a S&W Shield EZ and on a Springfield.

- g19, g45, g48 - maybe g43 or 43x but they seem too small (stick with the double stacks. Also, G43x and G48 are the same grip, slightly longer slide on the G48.)
- p320 m18, p320 x compact, p320 x carry, p365xl (stick with the M18)
- staccato c or cs (No)

First question... Would I actually see any of the benefit of the staccato unless I became an extremely good shooter? - No

Because the g45 and g48 seem to be variants of the g19, are they just as reliable? G45 is a G19 slide on a full size grip (basically a modified G17 grip). G48 is the exact same grip as the G43x, but has about half inch longer barrel and slide. G48 is the same length as a G19, but is not a variant of it. It is part of the slimline. And yes, they are all thought of as reliable (unless you screw around with the internals).

Does a slimmer grip generally hurt or hinder shootability (g48 vs g45)? I realize it's probably just a personal thing - Yes, the smaller frames generally feel sharper and more difficult to control muzzle flip. However, if you really like the slim frames, the G43x/G48, and the Sig P365 Macro do shoot better than other concealed carry focused handguns. Example: Shooting 500 rounds through my G45 or P320 is pretty easy. Shooting 300 through my G43x and other similar sized CCW pistols (S&W Shield +, Hellcat, etc). is very fatiguing.

Is there much difference in reliability between the Glocks and the p320/p365? Much difference in reliability between the different p320 models? P320 has a new lawsuit every month for a LEO having an "unwanted discharge". At this point, it is hard to know if cops are just so negligent in recent years and all have P320's, or if the P320's are truly deficient. However, I had a P320 compact run 1000 rounds of pretty cheapo bulk FMJ and only had 1 FTF (and it was definitely ammo related). My G45 has never had a failure and is around 1600ish rounds. My old G43x only had failures once I changed to aftermarket magazines. 1911 & 2011s are much more finicky.

Having not carried a pistol before... For backpack hunters where weight/space is a concern, would a subcompact be better or are the sizes of those above small enough to not be an issue? (Again, probably personal preference). Honestly, the small ones are still big enough to be a pain to carry. You are strapping a chunk of metal and plastic in a holster and strapping that holster to your pack or body. The bigger ones are small enough to not be much more of a pain. Excluding ridiculous examples like extra long barreled revolvers. Best compromise is to get a polymer frame "mullet" gun. ie. full size grips with the 4 inch barrels. Sig M18, G45/G19x. etc.

Also, yes there is a range with rentals nearby and I'll do that before purchasing. This is the best answer. Holding a gun at a store does nothing. Actually shooting (with proper form) is very telling. The Sig feels "nice" in the hand, but I did not love the way it recoiled with the higher bore axis. The Glock feels weird in the hand, but the grip angle and low bore axis make it shoot well. The M&Ps feel too aggressively textured in the store, but help control recoil when you are sweaty or do not have the strongest grip.

 

[Thinkingman]

Glock grip angle is unique. S
Since you have limited experience(read: no muscle memory), it is probably a good option.
Be aware that 'limp-wristing' will turn any reliable handgun into a problematic hammer.
My advice for new handgun shooters is to go with someone experienced and start with a 22lr handgun similar to what you may purchase.
Develop skills with a 22 then move to a centerfire handgun.
To register my suggested platform, Sig P365XL...Not sure if it's available with manual safety.
It fits my hand and points much more naturally than a Glock.
Also consider CZ P09 and P10.
Fantastic platforms.

 

[Formidilosus]

Food for thought. Thumb safeties are useless for most modern striker fired pistols. The thumb safety is meant to make the gun drop-safe, not negligent handling safe. Glocks, S&W M&PS, FN, and other modern striker fired handguns used hinges and blades on the triggers along with other designs to make them drop safe.

That is not what thumb safeties are for, or not what they only are for.

The “thumb safety bad” nonsense in this thread is based on ignorance and lack of experience.

Staccato is really more of a race gun. the 2011 style handguns are not designed for what you are looking for. Think of them like a racecar whereas the Glocks, M&Ps, Sigs etc. are more like working vehicles. 2011's generally are viewed as needing parts replaced and definitely need to be cleaned and lubricated more often. They shoot very nice, but I would not want one that might get dusty, sandy, etc.

You gotta watch those Staccato’s when they get dirty…..


Just over 40,000 rounds, never cleaned even a single time, no malfunctions.












Right after those picture- somewhere around 43,000 rounds it experienced its first malfunction-





About 1,000+/- rounds later, a second malfunction-




If you look at the first picture, you can see the issue… There was so much carbon built up under the extractor, that it was being held out (open) and wasn’t grabbing the rim. Pulled extractor, scraped the backside with a knife removing close to 1/8” of baked on carbon. Put extractor back in, and it has functioned perfectly for now over 60,000 rounds.

I have been around several dozen used heavily for at least 10,000 plus rounds- only one needed a slight extractor tweak, and Staccato changed how they QC the guns don’t didn’t happen again.


Staccato 2011 P’s using Gen 3 mags, especially with Atlas Plus 18% mag springs have proven to be as reliable as any other serious service pistol. The C and CS are even more reliable (Glock level).

- shootability - I've read Glocks are not particularly shootable. I personally disagree. The modern shooting grip was heavily influenced by the Glock grip angle.

No it wasn’t. The modern isosceles and modified isosceles, as well as the thumbs forward grip came from Brian Enos and Rob Leatham- both shooting 1911’s.

- prefer to have manual safety. See my opening paragraph. 1911's needed this because they were a super light single action trigger. The safety made them drop safe. Glocks and other similar modern designed are drop safe due to other designs. Still, if you really really think you must have one, the S&W M&P's or the Sig M18 would be good choices. I would avoid the grip safeties. I have had issues with the grip safety not always depressing on a S&W Shield EZ and on a Springfield.

Drop safe is not why a proper thumb safety is a good idea. This simply shows a lack of understanding on your part.

First question... Would I actually see any of the benefit of the staccato unless I became an extremely good shooter? - No

That is objectively and demonstrably untrue. On average new shooters to mid level shooters (say D class to mid A class USPSA) see the most difference in performance of a 1911/2011 over a Glock- between 15-25% depending on shooter.

1911 & 2011s are much more finicky.

Is this from personal experience with a real understanding of the guns?

 

[Choupique]

Holy shit that thing is filthy

 

[Formidilosus]

Holy shit that thing is filthy

Barely broke in.

 

[Formidilosus]

G22 with G17 slide and 9mm barrel:

10 rounds, 25 meters-



25,000’ish rounds on it’s barrel at this point IIRC-














Gen 3 G19 with 60,000’ish rounds on it on the right, early version 19M on left-






Gen 3, G17 with around 80,000 rounds on it at this point-

 

[Choupique]

I'm glad some of yall are out there giving these things the acid test. Those are some ridiculous round counts.

I saw it mentioned the safety on the 1911 being there for drop safety. I thought that's what the grip safety was for?

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

That is not what thumb safeties are for, or not what they only are for.

The “thumb safety bad” nonsense in this thread is based on ignorance and lack of experience.





You gotta watch those Staccato’s when they get dirty…..


Just over 40,000 rounds, never cleaned even a single time, no malfunctions.

View attachment 865709

View attachment 865712

View attachment 865711

View attachment 865713


Right after those picture- somewhere around 43,000 rounds it experienced its first malfunction-

View attachment 865717



About 1,000+/- rounds later, a second malfunction-

View attachment 865718


If you look at the first picture, you can see the issue… There was so much carbon built up under the extractor, that it was being held out (open) and wasn’t grabbing the rim. Pulled extractor, scraped the backside with a knife removing close to 1/8” of baked on carbon. Put extractor back in, and it has functioned perfectly for now over 60,000 rounds.

I have been around several dozen used heavily for at least 10,000 plus rounds- only one needed a slight extractor tweak, and Staccato changed how they QC the guns don’t didn’t happen again.


Staccato 2011 P’s using Gen 3 mags, especially with Atlas Plus 18% mag springs have proven to be as reliable as any other serious service pistol. The C and CS are even more reliable (Glock level).






No it wasn’t. The modern isosceles and modified isosceles, as well as the thumbs forward grip came from Brian Enos and Rob Leatham- both shooting 1911’s.







Drop safe is not why a proper thumb safety is a good idea. This simply shows a lack of understanding on your part.






That is objectively and demonstrably untrue. On average new shooters to mid level shooters (say D class to mid A class USPSA) see the most difference in performance of a 1911/2011 over a Glock- between 15-25% depending on shooter.




Is this from personal experience with a real understanding of the guns?

Form, going to disagree with you on quite a bit of this. 40k without a cleaning and any maintenance or lubrication and not a single malfunction would be an impressive feat. I would like to see how your round count was tracked. Is this verifiable? Even just with ammo variation, you would be likely to have at least a single failure of some kind. FTF, FTE, light primer strike. I do believe the 10k without lubrication but 40k plus is unlikely. Additionally, do you honestly think the bulk of 1911 and 2011 on the market could do half of that performance consistently?

Please provide what else the thumb safety is for besides drop safety. The overwhelming majority of respectable handgun trainers consider it a major point of failure for users when under stress. Additionally, respectable figures in the gun industry (not hunting, but specifically gun) are consistently against them or at the minimum would not use them unless using a 1911/2011 or single action (TRex arms, Honest Outlaw, Garand Thumb). They, along with others, consistently see shooters in classes draw, point, fail to depress the safety, and are unable to fire. References: Warrior Poet Society, T. Rex, Sage Dynamics, and more. What data do you have that counters all of their first hand experiences watching shooters fail?

While I certainly have not shot 60k through a single pistol, I do shoot often. I have shot a decent selection of handguns. I do actually research. Resulting to insult is generally a sign of a weak argument.

I called 1911s and 2011s finicky compared to Glocks because they are. You will be hard pressed to find a firearm instructor who would ever recommend 1911s for serious usage (CCW, duty, etc.). This is especially true due to the fact that a ton of 1911s people will buy are cheap and poorly made. The average person will not invest in higher end models that can run better. So again, please provide evidence supporting why firearms trainers do not recommend 1911s. Additionally, multiple gun channels have performed all kinds of stress test to pretty much every modern handgun. 2011s/1911s are some of the worst performers when introduced to dirt, sand, dust, mud, water, cold temps, etc.

Poor fundamentals and form will not make someone shoot better with a 1911/2011. If someone is not a good shooter, a lighter trigger won’t make them better. A good shooter will likely improve with the lighter trigger and low muzzle flip. Unless you are implying that the 2011s will mask things such as jerking the trigger in which case I could believe that to some extent.

 

[Long Cut]

Thumb safety make Staccato drop safe

 

[rileybassman]

Thumb safety make Staccato drop safe

Any series 70 is not truly drop safe due to floating firing pin. Light firing pins and heavy springs can help, but there is no firing pin block. It's been fine for 100+ years so I don't worry about it too much.

Sent from my SM-S916U using Tapatalk

 

[AlabamaMountainMan]

S

Thumb safety make Staccato drop safe

Staccato testing starts at 5 min 51 sec for anyone interested. Then immediately after it shows another high end 2011 from nighthawk.

 

[HighUintas]

G22 with G17 slide and 9mm barrel:

10 rounds, 25 meters-
View attachment 865758


25,000’ish rounds on it’s barrel at this point IIRC-

View attachment 865759

View attachment 865760


View attachment 865761


View attachment 865766




Gen 3 G19 with 60,000’ish rounds on it on the right, early version 19M on left-

View attachment 865763




Gen 3, G17 with around 80,000 rounds on it at this point-
View attachment 865767


View attachment 865768

Where's your p365 torture test?

 

[Colby]

I shot glocks pretty exclusively for most of my adult life ( I am not a professional gunfighter, I do shoot a decent bit and catch a local match here and there )
I have been shooting mostly 1911’s the last couple years, my scores on the fbi bullseye test were immediately better with the 1911 than with my glocks, even though I had way more flight time with glock.
My training pistol is a Tisas b9 carry( I think I paid $400-$500 at the time) Ran fine out of the box with the cheapo mags it came with, has ran fine with Ed brown 9 rd magazines. At somewhere around 1500 rds I started to get some failures to extract, replaced the extractor with a Wilson that I fit myself and replaced recoil spring at the same time. Shot another roughly 2000 or so and it started feeling a little sluggish going into battery so I put another recoil spring in it. I do keep it lubed and give it a wipe down every now and again.
Some take always from my perspective are;
- I immediately shot better with a 1911 than a gun I was more familiar with
- learning to operate a manual safety was a non issue, it is literally part of building my grip
- you don’t necessarily need to spend a fortune to have an operational 1911
- its not black magic to do a little bit of maintenance on a 1911 if you can do the brakes on your truck you can do the basic stuff on a 1911
I’m not saying it’s the best for the OP and what he’s looking for but I think a lot of the concern about 1911’s being a huge pain in the ass are unfounded.

 

[HighUintas]

That video makes me want to forget about a staccato.

Those tisas are interesting options. I've read on them a bit.

 

[Thegman]

Any thoughts on the Ruger RXM anyone? Haven't paid much attention to new pistols lately, but just noticed it today and thought it looked like it might be a pretty decent pistol.

(No manual safety - not OP's preference - sorry for any derailing)

 

[manitou1]

Several of us on our team run P365s.
I have the macro… the largest Sig P365 and it is pretty comparable in size to the Glock 19. Holds 17 rds. A bit more streamlined than the G19… and nicer to look at, lol.

I have not had a single malfunction in mine.

 

[Formidilosus]

Springfield Pro, 8,000’ish rounds never cleaned, no malfunctions:









Sig P320…. That’s a lot of 25 and 50 meter two hand and one handed bulls-





You gotta watch those Staccato’s if they are dropped… but apparently not if they are thrown 20+ yards on gravel…








50 meters, rapid-