Overpriced applications/tags. The grass isn't greener on the other side of the fence.

[CorbLand]

Not if you know what you're doing. That does come with caveats; not every state will have species that will be drawable. You have to do the work. And, you may (likely will) have to make some sacrifices; that may mean Cow Elk in UT, AZ, and WY if starting today. Pronghorn in AZ is probably not going to happen, same for Sheep/Moose in WY.

Yea, that would be covered under the “may” part of my comment…

It’s all risk and one gets to choose the level of risk they are willing to take but it’s risk.

 

[HunterGatherer]

Points systems are Ponzi schemes. With few exceptions, the points system is dead. No point in even starting in most states if you didn’t start 20 years ago. Application costs are up across the board, tag fees are growing exponentially ( UT doubled this year for example). It’s damn discouraging.

That being said, I will still continue to apply for hunts that are low odds, random draws. If you think it’s expensive to hunt big game now, just give it another 10-20 years. Western hunting is slowly but surely becoming a rich man’s sport.

The reality is that hunting will slowly disappear over the next few decades. Despite many people complaining about “ too many hunters”, there is actually less and less of us per capita. Once the anti-hunters start putting hunting in their crosshairs, like in Oregon and Colorado for example, it could disappear much quicker than people realize. Not many states have hunting rights in their state constitution… but I digress…

Bottom line for me, I’d rather die with a lifetime of hunting stories than a pile of money in the bank. I say spend whatever you can afford to make more opportunity for yourself while you still can.

 

[2buffalo]

This is how I know the economy is slowly getting worse and worse. 4 years ago everybody was applying for everything with no cares with stimulus, PP $$$, etc.

Getting worse or getting better?

 

[David Gough]

Well said. One correction, though: "One way that these game departments are exploiting this problem to make millions of dollars is by raising the costs and especially for the non-residents."

Willing buyer and willing seller. Hopefully the additional funds go to a "good cause".

 

[Lawnboi]

Willing buyer and willing seller. Hopefully the additional funds go to a "good cause".

Do you really believe any of the money you’re giving the government is being used at all efficiently?

I may be wrong but all the entities I see spend it all so they can ask for more.

The product they are selling is not getting better

 

[S.Clancy]

Getting worse or getting better?

Depends on your perspective I suppose.

 

[Elkangle]

Pretty much.
I'd be way better off hunting general units in a bunch of other states 10 times over that time frame and I'd likely kill multiple bulls bigger than the one I would end up with in Nevada. It doesn't make any sense. A bunch of these States don't make any sense.

Nevada isnt stopping you from hunting those general units and killing multple other big bulls....its not an either or....you can hunt those states...kill those big bulls....annnndd maybe if your lucky add a great nevada bull into the mix at some point in your life...30 years oppertunity cost for nevada is about 12 grand...current NV landonwer tags are north of 20,30,40k

 

[BigCountry34]

As long as hunters keep paying they will
keep raising the prices. Look at how much more money the state of Idaho made this year off the requirement to buy your license before putting into the nonresident OTC draw and there was no shortage of hunters that paid that.

 

[CMF]

One way that these game departments are mitigating this problem is by raising the costs and especially for the non-residents.

Why is "demand" a problem in itself?
Obviously, there are more hunters than animals for most of these tags, and draw processes are required. But is it our goal to "mitigate" or reduce demand and deter hunters from applying by increasing prices?

Raising prices in a normal market that is short on supply and high on demand usually results in more supply. Where does the money go when prices increase, and none of it is spent to increase supply?

Well said. One correction, though: "One way that these game departments are exploiting this problem to make millions of dollars is by raising the costs and especially for the non-residents."

Your point is hard to argue.

Hopefully the additional funds go to a "good cause".

That's what I tell myself at least.

Do you really believe any of the money you’re giving the government is being used at all efficiently?

I may be wrong but all the entities I see spend it all so they can ask for more.

The product they are selling is not getting better

No. Agree.

 

[David Gough]

Do you really believe any of the money you’re giving the government is being used at all efficiently?

I may be wrong but all the entities I see spend it all so they can ask for more.

The product they are selling is not getting better

I’m a tax CPA in my day to day, so no. Absolutely not being used efficiently.

I didn’t mention efficiency. Just to a good cause.

In Nevada we started having a moose season due. I personally helped with a pronghorn translocation in November. A couple hundred desert bighorn sheep were moved across the state last year as there were too many on the landscape. Pronghorn populations are at an all time high.

I try to stay optimistic with my DOW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lawnboi]

I’m a tax CPA in my day to day, so no. Absolutely not being used efficiently.

I didn’t mention efficiency. Just to a good cause.

In Nevada we started having a moose season due. I personally helped with a pronghorn translocation in November. A couple hundred desert bighorn sheep were moved across the state last year as there were too many on the landscape. Pronghorn populations are at an all time high.

I try to stay optimistic with my DOW.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

They are all doing some good stuff that’s for sure. Working for the government I’m a little less optimistic and do wish things could be done little differently.

 

[KZ4FR]

It bothers me what hunting has become. Everyone should have an equal opportunity to harvest various game on some level. I understand we have to restrict it in some areas for conservation, but the amount of money it cost to hunt some North American species is ridiculous.

 

[buffybr]

Why is "demand" a problem in itself?
Obviously, there are more hunters than animals for most of these tags, and draw processes are required. But is it our goal to "mitigate" or reduce demand and deter hunters from applying by increasing prices?

Raising prices in a normal market that is short on supply and high on demand usually results in more supply. Where does the money go when prices increase, and none of it is spent to increase supply?

Demand isn't a problem in itself, the problem is too many hunters.

One way that Monana addresses this problem is that they limit the number of non-resident elk hunters to 17,000.

High License costs also deter many hunters. I realize and agree that resident licenses should cost less than the cost for non-residents, but the difference is often very large and that high cost also deters many hunters. This year a Combination elk and deer license costs residents $64 and that same license would cost a non-resident $1,312. I'm sure that cost eliminates some non-resident hunters.

Years ago I got flamed on one of these Forums because I had written that I didn't apply for a Wyoming Antelope tag because I thought the cost was too high. Wyoming charges $326 for a non-resident Antelope license, BUT, you can pay $1,200 for a better chance of drawing that same tag. A Montana resident antelope tag would only cost me $19. Simple math.

Some states also require non-residents to buy a general hunting license before they can apply for a special tag.

At one time I thought about applying for a Desert sheep tag in Arizona. At that time I believe that they required non-residents to buy a $178 general hunting license before applying for the sheep tag. I've applied for 42 years here in Montana for a bighorn sheep tag without drawing. If I had done that in Arizona that would have cost me an additional $7,476. . . without drawing a tag. That was a definate deterrent for me.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I've applied for 42 years here in Montana for a bighorn sheep tag without drawing.

Wow

 

[Caseknife]

I would be ecstatic if we had single digit draw odds for residents in Washington for the majority of the LE tags. probably 90+% of those tags have draw odds of tenths of a percent, some 100th of a percent. 7500 people for one goat tag in the unit I was mistakenly drawn for with 28 points two years ago. Luckily we have OTC for deer and elk. So when I see 5% odds in some of the hunts I apply for in other states, that is pretty good. The one thing that I see as a problem is the guys that apply for years for a premium tag and have never hunted the species, that is just plain ignorant.

 

[tstowater]

I started the points game 20+ years ago with the primary goal of drawing a sheep tag. The incremental cost at the time of putting in for other species said to put in for everything that you could possibly be interested in. Back in those days, many of the States required you to front the tag fees. You could tie up a serious amount of money during application season.

Changing the application process to online and only having to advance the application fees until drawn made the process a lot less painful and with all the resources on how to do the applications, introduced a whole lot more people to the application process. Pretty simple to put the costs on a credit card and hope for the best.

I would not discourage people from playing, but they need to be realistic about their odds. There will come a time when the top end of the point structure may just drop off, not from drawing, but from dying or coming to the realization that they can't actually hunt. Look at the picture of the hunters on the high demand tags in AZ and other States that require a ton of points to draw, most of the hunters are in their 60's to 80's whether residents or non-residents. I've talked to an outfitter in one of these preference point States and it is already happening.

With that said, I have drawn at least one tag in every Western State that I apply in and some would be considered premium tags (sheep, elk and deer) and have a decent chance of drawing more before my hunting days are done. Even with the stack of points that I have in many of those States, my odds still suck.

For those who want to hunt big game in the Western States, they need to decide what they want to hunt and come up with a plan to try and achieve your goals, with the understanding that the rules can change either for the better or worse. Since every State has a different set of rules, some are going to be more attractive for low point or no point applicants and others for high point applicants.

All that said, YMMV.

 

[Muleyczy]

Points systems are Ponzi schemes. With few exceptions, the points system is dead. No point in even starting in most states if you didn’t start 20 years ago. Application costs are up across the board, tag fees are growing exponentially ( UT doubled this year for example). It’s damn discouraging.

That being said, I will still continue to apply for hunts that are low odds, random draws. If you think it’s expensive to hunt big game now, just give it another 10-20 years. Western hunting is slowly but surely becoming a rich man’s sport.

The reality is that hunting will slowly disappear over the next few decades. Despite many people complaining about “ too many hunters”, there is actually less and less of us per capita. Once the anti-hunters start putting hunting in their crosshairs, like in Oregon and Colorado for example, it could disappear much quicker than people realize. Not many states have hunting rights in their state constitution… but I digress…

Bottom line for me, I’d rather die with a lifetime of hunting stories than a pile of money in the bank. I say spend whatever you can afford to make more opportunity for yourself while you still can.

Points ponzu scheme example….I can’t understand why anyone would buy points in Wyoming for sheep/moose unless you have like 24-26+. Look at how many guys jump in the game buying a point like 1,2,3 points etc. points. Why! Wake up fellas. I can only figure they just don’t know.

2217 non residents bought their first $150 point