Outfitters banning bergers?!

[AkRyan]

What's the best bullet for a hunter who is a bad shot?

I'm not sure since I'm not a bad shot, go ask a professional guide!

 

[dkim]

Haven't read every post. Just saw his thread, but my experience with 7mm 168 VLD-H on one elk and one antelope has been great. I have hunted with an outfitter that had an opposite opinion - recommending Bergers.

 

[OMF]

I'm not sure since I'm not a bad shot...

That's not what SHE said. (Sorry, couldn't resist 8th grade humor.)

This is an interesting thread; lots of opinions and experiences. When I started hunting mule deer and white tail back...in...the...day with my superstore bought rifle and scope combo, the counter guy gave me 150 gr Remington core-lokts. You know, "the deadliest mushroom in the woods." For me they were both accurate out of that gun and very deadly at ~300 yards or less. I used them until I got into hand loading and was able to try new loads and bullet combos.

Today I tend to use Barnes TSX or TTSX (mostly) and other monos with solid success on deer. That's at 300 yards or less that my belly crawlin dirt eatin self will keep shots too. For elk, I'll use the same or any of the better bonded bullets. I believe shot placement is key, and that's on me.

I have a hunting friend who is an elk and mule deer guide. He's also a very good and successful hunter on his own. In his life before he gave up his day job and started guiding, he was a state rifle champ many times over. He was also generous with shooting advice and helping others become better shots. However, on guided hunts he said that wasn't part of his role. His job was to get the client in the right place for the shot; the shooting was up to the client. And "cleanup" was up to him.

 

[KenLee]

I always love the comment about not recovering an animal but was sure it was a good shot….how do they know for sure?

It’s funny, I moved over to Bergers over a decade ago after having a ttsx Barnes pencil through on more than one occasion. To each their own I guess.

Yes sir the stupidity is real. You don't know til you know. I shot at a decent buck yesterday evening running a big doe. 150 yard snap shot freehand. He got back into the thicket before I could send another round.
From 52 deer seasons experience, I would have bet and gave someone really good odds that it was a miss. This based entirely on the deer's lack of reaction. He just continued on at same pace after the doe.
After dark, I slipped out and retrieved the ole lem hunnert from the truck in case i jumped a wounded deer. Buck was only 30 yards out of sight dead as a hammer.
Folks that swear up a good shot without seeing a dead deer are simply delusional.

 

[KenLee]

The early 1990s 30 cal ballistic tips had very thin jackets. Sometimes they would blow up. Nosler made the jackets a little thicker and now there's a risk that they'll pencil through. Three of us took virtually identical shots at 2600 ft per second impact velocity. Several didn't expand and several deer and a couple hundred yards. In a river swamp that's serious doo doo. We all quit using those. Last one used was 4 years ago.

Then we tried match Kings. Those are pretty predictable. They work just like FMJ. The deer died, but not quick or close by. We quit using those immediately

Then we all tried partitions. We didn't like them because other bullets were more accurate. All but one deer out of 10 ended up less than 10 paces from impact.

Then we all tried game Kings, 150s and 165s. We had near 90% within the 10 paces range. I lost one deer with a straight-on shot because the bullet deflected off the sternum and ribs and went under the shoulder. Didn't enter the body cavity. Pretty much blew the shoulder off but I lost it in the swamp. We're close to 100 deer in right now. We still play with stuff, head shots with 65gr 224 game Kings, 130 grain SST. Between 400 and 500 yd the game King is plenty accurate but it's not match accurate anymore at that range.

The main thing is we don't pick bullets because we like them, because they're pretty, because they're accurate. If they don't put 90% of the deer down in 10 pesos we pick a better bullet. None of us have messed with monos. We feel theyre too velocity sensitive.

The main point is with deer, there's just no reason why they should run off. If tracking is needed frequently, my point is something's a little off. I appreciate your comment very much!

Ballistic tip Noslers penciling through?
On what alternate planet does this happen?

 

[WRO]

Ballistic tip Noslers penciling through?
On what alternate planet does this happen?

They explode, I’ve seen it first hand..


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[KenLee]

I hear you man, it was a rhetorical question. When the shooter sucks it doesn't matter what they're using.

Then the question of splatter bullet vs sure fire exit for blood trail comes in

 

[eoperator]

They explode, I’ve seen it first hand..


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Can you hear the bang or is it muffled inside the chest?

 

[tdhanses]

Yes I agree, I just want to talk and understand why…and see if it’s a bullet issue, or shooter issue….if the guide is taking individuals that shoot a rifle less than 10 times a year I feel like any projectile they use could get scrutinized. Vs someone that shoots a lot and knows what they are doing.

A skilled marksman with a 223 is more deadly than an untrained hunter with a .338 lapua.

Not sure if Broz is still on here but he has been part of 100’s of elk shot with bergers and from what I remember all he’ll use, he also won’t use anything smaller then a .30 cal.

 

[Vern400]

Ballistic tip Noslers penciling through?
On what alternate planet does this happen?

Earth 2022

 

[KenLee]

I've s

Earth 2022

I've shot well over 100 deer with NBT and never seen that happen. Like Hornady SST, I have seen exits just a hair bigger than caliber size where just the hard bullet base exited. Insides were soup where front of bullet fragmented though.

 

[WRO]

Can you hear the bang or is it muffled inside the chest?

They kill stuff no doubt, but they make an eldm look like a bonded bullet.

That being said my experience with them has been with high velocity loadings..


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[204_ruger]

I have been using 140 gr VLD H in my 280 Rem. And 168gr VLD H in my 7 mm mag. Very happy with how they preformed on deer. Bought a new 280AI. Wanted to try the 150 gr and 168gr Classic Hunter bullets in it. For my 300 wby rifle. I bought some 185 gr Classic Hunter bullets. And 205 gr Elite Hunter bullets.

 

[WYChap]

A few years back when I reloaded, I tried a variety of Barnes bullets with mixed results. A few quick kills and a few I had to track. Two had very small holes in and out and no bullet recovery. One lost animal. This was all deer and antelope.

My father-in-law never hunted with anything but a 168 gr. Sierra Game King from his .300 Win Mag. and never lost an animal. Accurate and deadly to the distances he shot. But hunting was closing the distance and not tempting physics with cross canyon shots.

I just started hunting again this year and picked up the 156 gr. Berger Elite Hunter from a 6.5-300 Wby. Two one shot kills on an antelope and deer at 358 and 234 yards respectively. Dropped within 10 yds. Both pass throughs I could put two fingers into, significant organ damage and almost no lost meat.

There is a lot to be said for confidence in your rifle and ammunition, confidence in your abilities and taking good shots at reasonable distances. I am confident I can take an animal out to 600 yards but, for me hunting is getting in on them in their setting and limiting external factors that could impact my success. Based on very limited results, I will give the Bergers more opportunity, at least on deer sized game.