Outfitters banning bergers?!

[WRO]

It does matter, when viewed in context. Killing 1,000 animals without experimenting, analyzing the results, and understanding of what you are looking at doesn’t help much though.

There is a very large difference between killing 100 animals, and killing one animal 100 times.

I know there are guides that are knowledgeable- you probably are one of them. But, also can state with high confidence, that there are very few that are.






There is no “void”. The lungs are mechanically locked to the pleural cavity with pleural fluid and negative pressure in the entire circumference. A “void” would be a pneumothorax and is fatal.






I don’t understand what you are getting at here?

Not quickly enough fatal, maybe long term but no blood makes for a hard tracking job.

My analogy was more based in what repeatedly works vs what works in theory but is not often tested by the masses.


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[WRO]

If outfitters banned fat ass lazy people I bet their success rates would go up much more than banning any bullet. But fat lazy ban would cause them to go out of business.

Soooo, bring on the obese with anything but Bergers.

Unfortunately long range rifles have entered the equation.

Take away range finders and people have to go back to reasonable ranges, fattys would be weeded out quickly.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Easy fix, don’t hire a guide.

 

[Formidilosus]

Not quickly enough fatal, maybe long term but no blood makes for a hard tracking job.

My analogy was more based in what repeatedly works vs what works in theory but is not often tested by the masses.

Ahhh. I understand now, thank you.

 

[WRO]

6.5 PRC. I honestly think the expansion is too slow for thin skinned game like the pronghorn and doe whitetail that I had bad experiences with. What i saw was pin holes. If I was to shoot another deer or smaller sized critter with them I would high shoulder them to ensure getting bone. I shot a mule buck with the same set up high shoulder and he didn't flinch. The amount of damage was beyond extreme and made for a light pack out. I am only pushing these 2700 out of a short barrel.

What bullet?


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[WeiserBucks]

Unfortunately long range rifles have entered the equation.

Take away range finders and people have to go back to reasonable ranges, fattys would be weeded out quickly.

Tubbies have been unsuccessful going guided long before modern rangefinders.

 

[justin davis]

Seems silly that an outfitter would do that. There are a lot of accomplished hunters that shoot Berger’s on game.

 

[sndmn11]

What i saw was pin holes.

Is it possible you were seeing exiting fragments making the pin hole?

 

[Mountainrancher]

All bullets can fail. However I think when someone cries bullet failure or talks about how bad a bullet is it’s usually 1) a bullet doesn’t do what they expected or desired but the animal is dead or 2) it was a terrible shot that they are telling themselves was perfect.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

As a former “guide” and someone who now big game hunts 6 months out of the year, every year, using an “outfitter” or “guide” as some sort of “authority” on killing is a huge mistake.

 

[IAm_Not_Lost]

That’s just blustery BS from the guide. They’ll post that crap with one hand and take the money with the other.

 

[rootacres]

I think we all know that basically any bullet put in the wrong spot may not have the best results and vice versa. I have first hand experience of listening to a very seasoned guide swear off a handful of calibers and a couple different bullets. Im sure due to bad experiences from poor shots from clients. He doesn't tell anyone what they can or cannot use, just has his own opinion.

I also can't help but think there are many people the think they are Bob Lee Swager because they can out shoot the Fudd next to them on the 100 at their local range. Berger has been a big name in the long range game for a while. Some of these wanna be Bob Lees shoot Bergers because that's the bullet the long range guys use right? Then they flub shots in the moment.

 

[WRO]

I think we all know that basically any bullet put in the wrong spot may not have the best results and vice versa. I have first hand experience of listening to a very seasoned guide swear off a handful of calibers and a couple different bullets. Im sure due to bad experiences from poor shots from clients. He doesn't tell anyone what they can or cannot use, just has his own opinion.

I also can't help but think there are many people the think they are Bob Lee Swager because they can out shoot the Fudd next to them on the 100 at their local range. Berger has been a big name in the long range game for a while. Some of these wanna be Bob Lees shoot Bergers because that's the bullet the long range guys use right? Then they flub shots in the moment.

Yes and no, I post mortemed 2 elk that had perfect double lung pencil holes from un opened Bergers.

Barnes consistently so the same stuff.

They would’ve died eventually, but not without a tough trailing job.

The guys who’ve done it enough have educated opinions, the ones who are on the edges don’t.

 

[Whaledriver]

I have to say this thread is entertaining. "Good shots " then the animal ran away. I know of very few animals shot through the heart or lungs with a high power that "got away". Outfitters should ban poor marksman before banning a bullet. What world do we live in now?

 

[HuntHarder]

"Broz" used to have a bunch of knowledge. He quit posting here tho

 

[5811]

Yes and no, I post mortemed 2 elk that had perfect double lung pencil holes from un opened Bergers.

Barnes consistently so the same stuff.

They would’ve died eventually, but not without a tough trailing job.

The guys who’ve done it enough have educated opinions, the ones who are on the edges don’t.

Which Bergers? I'm new to them and loading some vld hunters. Are Berger bullets all similar enough to just lump together and say "bergers" or is that like saying "sierras" or "hornady's"?

 

[Vern400]

I agree, I’m in the same boat i shoot 20+ deer a year on the property I manage so I get a lot of chances to try things and get a pretty good idea of what will kill a deer pretty quick with a well placed shot and what won’t…and so far just about anything you shoot at a 100-180# deer with in a vital area will kill it within a relatively short time frame.

I just wonder about someone having an issue with any bullet that would the outcome have been different if another projectile was used and hit the same spot with the same velocity would outcome would have been then same or would the animal be dead. Sadly we will never know the answer to that question.

I agree, I’m in the same boat i shoot 20+ deer a year on the property I manage so I get a lot of chances to try things and get a pretty good idea of what will kill a deer pretty quick with a well placed shot and what won’t…and so far just about anything you shoot at a 100-180# deer with in a vital area will kill it within a relatively short time frame.

I just wonder about someone having an issue with any bullet that would the outcome have been different if another projectile was used and hit the same spot with the same velocity would outcome would have been then same or would the animal be dead. Sadly we will never know the answer to that question.

The early 1990s 30 cal ballistic tips had very thin jackets. Sometimes they would blow up. Nosler made the jackets a little thicker and now there's a risk that they'll pencil through. Three of us took virtually identical shots at 2600 ft per second impact velocity. Several didn't expand and several deer and a couple hundred yards. In a river swamp that's serious doo doo. We all quit using those. Last one used was 4 years ago.

Then we tried match Kings. Those are pretty predictable. They work just like FMJ. The deer died, but not quick or close by. We quit using those immediately

Then we all tried partitions. We didn't like them because other bullets were more accurate. All but one deer out of 10 ended up less than 10 paces from impact.

Then we all tried game Kings, 150s and 165s. We had near 90% within the 10 paces range. I lost one deer with a straight-on shot because the bullet deflected off the sternum and ribs and went under the shoulder. Didn't enter the body cavity. Pretty much blew the shoulder off but I lost it in the swamp. We're close to 100 deer in right now. We still play with stuff, head shots with 65gr 224 game Kings, 130 grain SST. Between 400 and 500 yd the game King is plenty accurate but it's not match accurate anymore at that range.

The main thing is we don't pick bullets because we like them, because they're pretty, because they're accurate. If they don't put 90% of the deer down in 10 pesos we pick a better bullet. None of us have messed with monos. We feel theyre too velocity sensitive.

The main point is with deer, there's just no reason why they should run off. If tracking is needed frequently, my point is something's a little off. I appreciate your comment very much!

 

[30338]

Family and I have shot a lot of game with 140 berger vld from 6.5x47 and 6.5-06. Ranges from around 100 yards to slightly past 500 yards. Nothing has survived them and results are mostly DRT. Minimal meat loss typically. Elk, mule deer, whitetail, pronghorn, mtn goat, black bear. I don't use an outfitter so I hunt with what works for us.

I guess if you elect to hunt guided, you should follow directions of the outfitter. I'd just find another outfitter.

 

[FowlMouthA400]

As a former “guide” and someone who now big game hunts 6 months out of the year, every year, using an “outfitter” or “guide” as some sort of “authority” on killing is a huge mistake.

Another aspect of that is you would also think that outfitters/guides would know how to handle game animals that clients want to have mounted….i have zero big game knowledge on this but as a waterfowl and Turkey taxidermist some of the worst improperly packaged and handled birds come from outfitters and that just blows my mind. Its like they don’t even care or care to gain said knowledge.

 

[WRO]

Which Bergers? I'm new to them and loading some vld hunters. Are Berger bullets all similar enough to just lump together and say "bergers" or is that like saying "sierras" or "hornady's"?

They were the 230s OTMs from like 8 years ago, the recent ones haven’t had issues from the 20 or so animals I’ve seen killed with them.

I’ve been really impressed with get eldms, the eldx kill really well, but they’re really hard on meat in comparison. That being said it’s like 8 or 10 with eldx that I’ve post mortemed. Lots more blood shot that when they hit bone than my experience with eldms.