Outfitters banning bergers?!

[Vern400]

There's another way to look at this.

If we had a post topic discussing how many large game animals a person had pulled the trigger on, and how many were collected, and how many were lost, clean missed, wounded, Perhaps with some lessons learned for the benefit of others....

Would we have a good number of contributors? and would the responses be generally truthful?
I rather doubt both.

I also doubt that a professional guide would make a decision not to allow any certain ammo at the peril of his own business, without a halfway valid reason.

A friend of mine and I got the wild idea to use certain match bullets on deer some years ago, and by mid season we had both decided it was a real bad idea. I think that only took five or six perfect shots with a few bad results for us to figure it out. Years and years passed. A month ago he came over to use my range and it was like " OH you settled on game Kings too, huh?". After some years where the limit is 12 it's fairly easy to get somewhat relevant trends in performance.

You can handload your bullets backwards and kill a deer. That kind of doesn't make it smart though.

And I don't know whether Berger bullets are great or bad. I don't have a dog in the Berger dogfight. One thing I do know. If you frequently do a lot of tracking when you shoot deer, either you're shooting ain't great, your rifle ain't great, or your bullet performance ain't great. My friends and I have talked about this and about 80% of our deer are planted within a few paces of where they were hit. Don't know about elk. Don't know about moose. Don't know about bears. Deer? Yeah

 

[WRO]

Yeah, any outfitter that has an arbitrary ban on specific cartridges/calibers/projectiles is just publicly showcasing their lack of understanding of bullet performance or external/internal ballistics of any kind. IMO, it just makes it easier to narrow in on who I shouldn’t hire should the need arise for an outfitter.

That’s really not true, while allot of them don’t spend I’ll day on forums, many have a big enough body of work to have a qualified real world experience based opinion.

 

[FowlMouthA400]

There's another way to look at this.

If we had a post topic discussing how many large game animals a person had pulled the trigger on, and how many were collected, and how many were lost, clean missed, wounded, Perhaps with some lessons learned for the benefit of others....

Would we have a good number of contributors? and would the responses be generally truthful?
I rather doubt both.

I also doubt that a professional guide would make a decision not to allow any certain ammo at the peril of his own business, without a halfway valid reason.

A friend of mine and I got the wild idea to use certain match bullets on deer some years ago, and by mid season we had both decided it was a real bad idea. I think that only took five or six perfect shots with a few bad results for us to figure it out. Years and years passed. A month ago he came over to use my range and it was like " OH you settled on game Kings too, huh?". After some years where the limit is 12 it's fairly easy to get somewhat relevant trends in performance.

You can handload your bullets backwards and kill a deer. That kind of doesn't make it smart though.

And I don't know whether Berger bullets are great or bad. I don't have a dog in the Berger dogfight. One thing I do know. If you frequently do a lot of tracking when you shoot deer, either you're shooting ain't great, your rifle ain't great, or your bullet performance ain't great. My friends and I have talked about this and about 80% of our deer are planted within a few paces of where they were hit. Don't know about elk. Don't know about moose. Don't know about bears. Deer? Yeah

I agree, I’m in the same boat i shoot 20+ deer a year on the property I manage so I get a lot of chances to try things and get a pretty good idea of what will kill a deer pretty quick with a well placed shot and what won’t…and so far just about anything you shoot at a 100-180# deer with in a vital area will kill it within a relatively short time frame.

I just wonder about someone having an issue with any bullet that would the outcome have been different if another projectile was used and hit the same spot with the same velocity would outcome would have been then same or would the animal be dead. Sadly we will never know the answer to that question.

 

[199p]

I was thinking about this and I wondered if it is more a type of person they are trying to regulate.

The type who can shoot very long distances, shooting of a bench on a flat range with all the time to take the perfect shot but doesn't have the skills to translate that into the field and overestimates their field shooting skills.

I can think of 4 people off the top of my head, that I know personally who can shoot very well on the range but have had several misses under 500y.

 

[CorbLand]

That’s really not true, while allot of them don’t spend I’ll day on forums, many have a big enough body of work to have a qualified real world experience based opinion.

Unless they have a rule saying "you can only shoot XX" then it may be real world experience but its nothing more than biased experience and isnt useful.

 

[FowlMouthA400]

That’s really not true, while allot of them don’t spend I’ll day on forums, many have a big enough body of work to have a qualified real world experience based opinion.

Yes I agree, I just want to talk and understand why…and see if it’s a bullet issue, or shooter issue….if the guide is taking individuals that shoot a rifle less than 10 times a year I feel like any projectile they use could get scrutinized. Vs someone that shoots a lot and knows what they are doing.

A skilled marksman with a 223 is more deadly than an untrained hunter with a .338 lapua.

 

[WRO]

Unless they have a rule saying "you can only shoot XX" then it may be real world experience but its nothing more than biased experience and isnt useful.

As compared to what?

 

[WRO]

Yes I agree, I just want to talk and understand why…and see if it’s a bullet issue, or shooter issue….if the guide is taking individuals that shoot a rifle less than 10 times a year I feel like any projectile they use could get scrutinized. Vs someone that shoots a lot and knows what they are doing.

A skilled marksman with a 223 is more deadly than an untrained hunter with a .338 lapua.

Every client is the worlds greatest shooter and has a sighted in rifle on the phone. I know several outfitters that strongly encourage most to just leave their gun at home and shoot theirs.

I’ve guided some and have seen a couple hundred big game animals die in the last decade. The newer bergers are better, but the old ones tended to pencil hole pretty bad. I don’t like Barnes because even though they will kill, they tend to lead to a lot of tracking jobs and aren’t as forgiving as like an ELDM etc with shot placement.

 

[FowlMouthA400]

Every client is the worlds greatest shooter and has a sighted in rifle on the phone. I know several outfitters that strongly encourage most to just leave their gun at home and shoot theirs.

I’ve guided some and have seen a couple hundred big game animals die in the last decade. The newer bergers are better, but the old ones tended to pencil hole pretty bad. I don’t like Barnes because even though they will kill, they tend to lead to a lot of tracking jobs and aren’t as forgiving as like an ELDM etc with shot placement.

This is my first year using bergers and I’m gonna make my own assumptions after I have first hand real world experience. Just sucks I don’t have anything bigger than whitetail deer to research on.

 

[nobody]

That’s really not true, while allot of them don’t spend I’ll day on forums, many have a big enough body of work to have a qualified real world experience based opinion.

The problem is many of them are making assumptions like “bergers are bad” or “the 6.5 creed is too small for elk” or any other number of gross generalizations without acknowledging that the vast majority of hunters fire less than a box of ammo per season (heck, many of them probably use the same box for 2 or 3 seasons before buying more). They’re blaming the cartridge or the projectile without looking at the whole picture. They’ll blame the tangible items they can see the hunter using, rather than questioning the hunter’s actual shooting ability. Does the hunter actual understand their own rifle’s ballistics? Do they know how that CDS dial on their Leupold actually works, or do they just take the values that the Leupold custom shop fed them at face value? Was the shot placement actually as “perfect” as they think it was (probably not)? Do they understand their own limitations as a shooter, and does the outfitter ever question those limitations?

The outfitter needs something to blame for the “perfect” shot not working and having the elk just run away. Just because they watch a ton of animals get shot doesn’t mean they’re an expert on the subject, anymore than driving to work every day at 10 over the speed limit makes me an expert on NASCAR driving skills. If they can watch 100 get shot and recovered with bergers, then the same with a Barnes, then the same with every variety of other projectile on the market, then maybe they’ll become a subject matter expert.

 

[CorbLand]

As compared to what?

Well if you have a rule that says that one can only shoot a 30 cal 200 grain bullet, and then your data of what effectively can kill an animal isnt really useful. Yes, that combo that you require can kill an animal but its not the only thing that can. Its not effective data at all.

If a guide had a rule that you can only shoot 77TMK and that is because they have a 75% recovery rate on them. What are you comparing that to if you arent allowing someone to shoot something else?

Ironically though, you kind of answered your own question of "As compared to what?" To which the answer really could just be "Exactly."

 

[Fetty Wapiti]

I have unfortunately seen a 2 for 3 failure rate with my limited experiences with berger 140 VLDs and have moved back to hammers, nosler, and ELDX. They work at the range, but I don't like shooting animals 5 times.

 

[FowlMouthA400]

I have unfortunately seen a 2 for 3 failure rate with my limited experiences with berger 140 VLDs and have moved back to hammers, nosler, and ELDX. They work at the range, but I don't like shooting animals 5 times.

Any idea what you think happened wbu they didn’t work?
What caliber/cartridge 140s

 

[WRO]

The problem is many of them are making assumptions like “bergers are bad” or “the 6.5 creed is too small for elk” or any other number of gross generalizations without acknowledging that the vast majority of hunters fire less than a box of ammo per season (heck, many of them probably use the same box for 2 or 3 seasons before buying more). They’re blaming the cartridge or the projectile without looking at the whole picture. They’ll blame the tangible items they can see the hunter using, rather than questioning the hunter’s actual shooting ability. Does the hunter actual understand their own rifle’s ballistics? Do they know how that CDS dial on their Leupold actually works, or do they just take the values that the Leupold custom shop fed them at face value? Was the shot placement actually as “perfect” as they think it was (probably not)? Do they understand their own limitations as a shooter, and does the outfitter ever question those limitations?

The outfitter needs something to blame for the “perfect” shot not working and having the elk just run away. Just because they watch a ton of animals get shot doesn’t mean they’re an expert on the subject, anymore than driving to work every day at 10 over the speed limit makes me an expert on NASCAR driving skills. If they can watch 100 get shot and recovered with bergers, then the same with a Barnes, then the same with every variety of other projectile on the market, then maybe they’ll become a subject matter expert.

Lotta word salad to say I know more than the guys who do it for a living.

For my self personally every animal I’ve guided in the last decade I’ve watched get shot though with a bino or spotter and know within inches most time of the shot placement.

From my experience with a couple hundred, I don’t like Barnes for elk, the only non recovered animals from rifle shots I remember are Berger 230s. 2 bucks and 1 cow elk before I stopped shooting them. They didn’t expand for shit.

I have several guide friends that are well north of 1k elk kills guided. I’m probably

 

[Formidilosus]

Lotta word salad to say I know more than the guys who do it for a living.

Far be it for me, however my meager experience is exactly opposite of this. 8-9 guides in the last year that I have shot with, or that were there when I/we shot animals, all with huge numbers of guided animals to their experience, and not one even understood the most basic concepts of what bullets do in tissue.
Half or so believed that there is a “void” above the lungs and below the spine. A couple believed that at close range “bullets can go so fast that “they don’t have time to open”. One was adamant that he was nearly 100% on demand for running elk past 500 yards. Almost all were utterly determined that 6mm’s wouldn’t penetrate enough or have enough “oomph” to kill elk, and most stated flatly that the 6.5cm’s wasn’t an elk cartridge at all and has resulted in lots of wounded and lost game. Nearly all stated that an elks chest is “over 2 feet wide”, even though they were standing there looking at bull elk with a 13-15” wide chest.

Of course, some said all this while regaling nonstop about how bad hunters are at shooting, how many missed and lost wounded animals they see (with no real lightbulb moment when inevitably they were asked “what cartridge” and it was almost always “300 mag” or “338 mag”), etc, etc, etc.


Guides do not study terminal ballistics “for a living”. They put a person in range of an animal, then if that person kills it, they generally cut it up for them. None that I have met even look at the tissue damage or wound channel beyond “it exited” or “here’s the bullet”- and only a couple at that.

While I am sure they exist, I have yet to meet a guide that had legitimate broad base shooting knowledge, skill, or ability; nor one that even understood the most basic level of terminal ballistics, or one that could watch trace or splash on an animal and give a absolute correct call. However, I have met quite a few that understood animal behavior, stalking, and good knowledge of terrain and movement- the main things besides babysitting that they are paid for.

This has been my experience since meeting my first guide 20’ish years ago, and while it absolutely is a small sample size- I would like to meet, read articles, or watch a video from these guides that exist that know so much about shooting and terminal ballistics.

 

[FowlMouthA400]

Far be it for me, however my meager experience is exactly opposite of this. 8-9 guides in the last year that I have shot with, or that were there when I/we shot animals, all with huge numbers of guided animals to their experience, and not one even understood the most basic concepts of what bullets do in tissue.
Half or so believed that there is a “void” above the lungs and below the spine. A couple believed that at close range “bullets can go so fast that “they don’t have time to open”. One was adamant that he was nearly 100% on demand for running elk past 500 yards. Almost all were utterly determined that 6mm’s wouldn’t penetrate enough or have enough “oomph” to kill elk, and most stated flatly that the 6.5cm’s wasn’t an elk cartridge at all and has resulted in lots of wounded and lost game. Nearly all stated that an elks chest is “over 2 feet wide”, even though they were standing there looking at bull elk with a 13-15” wide chest.

Of course, some said all this while regaling nonstop about how bad hunters are at shooting, how many missed and lost wounded animals they see (with no real lightbulb moment when inevitably they were asked “what cartridge” and it was almost always “300 mag” or “338 mag”), etc, etc, etc.


Guides do not study terminal ballistics “for a living”. They put a person in range of an animal, then if that person kills it, they generally cut it up for them. None that I have met even look at the tissue damage or wound channel beyond “it exited” or “here’s the bullet”- and only a couple at that.

While I am sure they exist, I have yet to meet a guide that had legitimate broad base shooting knowledge, skill, or ability; nor one that even understood the most basic level of terminal ballistics, or one that could watch trace or splash on an animal and give a absolute correct call. However, I have met quite a few that understood animal behavior, stalking, and good knowledge of terrain and movement- the main things besides babysitting that they are paid for.

This has been my experience since meeting my first guide 20’ish years ago, and while it absolutely is a small sample size- I would like to meet, read articles, or watch a video from these guides that exist that know so much about shooting and terminal ballistics.

Would be a good topic for FORM Fridays if you ask me….

When I asked one guide he couldn’t give me specifics on why he didn’t allow bergers he just said “too many animals hit in a perfect spot and not recovered”

 

[WRO]

Far be it for me, however my meager experience is exactly opposite of this. 8-9 guides in the last year that I have shot with, or that were there when I/we shot animals, all with huge numbers of guided animals to their experience, and not one even understood the most basic concepts of what bullets do in tissue.
Half or so believed that there is a “void” above the lungs and below the spine. A couple believed that at close range “bullets can go so fast that “they don’t have time to open”. One was adamant that he was nearly 100% on demand for running elk past 500 yards. Almost all were utterly determined that 6mm’s wouldn’t penetrate enough or have enough “oomph” to kill elk, and most stated flatly that the 6.5cm’s wasn’t an elk cartridge at all and has resulted in lots of wounded and lost game. Nearly all stated that an elks chest is “over 2 feet wide”, even though they were standing there looking at bull elk with a 13-15” wide chest.

Of course, some said all this while regaling nonstop about how bad hunters are at shooting, how many missed and lost wounded animals they see (with no real lightbulb moment when inevitably they were asked “what cartridge” and it was almost always “300 mag” or “338 mag”), etc, etc, etc.


Guides do not study terminal ballistics “for a living”. They put a person in range of an animal, then if that person kills it, they generally cut it up for them. None that I have met even look at the tissue damage or wound channel beyond “it exited” or “here’s the bullet”- and only a couple at that.

While I am sure they exist, I have yet to meet a guide that had legitimate broad base shooting knowledge, skill, or ability; nor one that even understood the most basic level of terminal ballistics, or one that could watch trace or splash on an animal and give a absolute correct call. However, I have met quite a few that understood animal behavior, stalking, and good knowledge of terrain and movement- the main things besides babysitting that they are paid for.

This has been my experience since meeting my first guide 20’ish years ago, and while it absolutely is a small sample size- I would like to meet, read articles, or watch a video from these guides that exist that know so much about shooting and terminal ballistics.

There’s a lot of opinions, body count matters though in the end.

I know you like to shoot critters more than once ( same here so no judgement) the average guy can’t stay behind the rifle, work the bolt and be efficient for multiple follow up shots, most don’t have that skill set.

I’ve got video of a deer getting hit in the void, it’s not often, but it does occur. More often though it’s the top of the spine vertebrae.

While I understand terminal ballistics, I also can read new scientific papers that take the emphasis off predators. We’re still going to whole sale murder anything with canines, because it has noticeable results.

 

[Formidilosus]

There’s a lot of opinions, body count matters though in the end.

It does matter, when viewed in context. Killing 1,000 animals without experimenting, analyzing the results, and understanding of what you are looking at doesn’t help much though.

There is a very large difference between killing 100 animals, and killing one animal 100 times.

I know there are guides that are knowledgeable- you probably are one of them. But, also can state with high confidence, that there are very few that are.

I know you like to shoot critters more than once ( same here so no judgement) the average guy can’t stay behind the rifle, work the bolt and be efficient for multiple follow up shots, most don’t have that skill set.

I’ve got video of a deer getting hit in the void, it’s not often, but it does occur. More often though it’s the top of the spine vertebrae.

There is no “void”. The lungs are mechanically locked to the pleural cavity with pleural fluid and negative pressure in the entire circumference. A “void” would be a pneumothorax and is fatal.

While I understand terminal ballistics, I also can read new scientific papers that take the emphasis off predators. We’re still going to whole sale murder anything with canines, because it has noticeable results.

I don’t understand what you are getting at here?