onX hunt inaccurate property lines

[ODB]

This looks like a bad spatial reference conversion. Probably one set of data with one datum and the other with a different data or using US survey feet vs feet or using data built with one coordinate system and displayed with data projected on a different coordinate system.

I work on daily basis with ArcGIS and CAD ... I like using OnX, but only as a reference as to where a property line may be.

Yup. When I worked for a mapping company back in the 1990s , we would “warp” maps so that road intersections matched the Tiger file data we used to subsequently locate customer locations. It was basically the precursor to Mapquest etc...

 

[MtGomer]

Companies like OnX get their information from, as previously stated, county assessor data sets. These data sets are GIS grade. (Not survey grade) they are then laid into GCDB (Geographic Coordinate Database) maps that the BLM keeps. The GCDB is kept of cadastral line work across the west. This is your section, township and range lines. The BLM makes the GCDB based off of primary and secondary survey grade data within a township, but then uses a Least Squares mathematical adjustment to interpolate the rest of the township. This adjustment can cause lines to appear significantly off of their actual location. The more remote and lacking in density of GPS data these townships are, the more error in the adjustment.
There are other variables that can come into play like someone mentioned above such as people entering and processing data using a datum or coordinate system or unit of measurement other than what the data was collected in. Most GIS techs know very little about data collection and survey principles. They’re trained in data entry and compilation.

That is a long winded way of saying that you don’t have survey grade line work on platforms like OnX. That is the main issue you encounter.
To a lesser extent, you are using it on a cellphone that is accurate to a few meters (impressively better than it was even a few short years ago) but not sub centimeter like a $60k survey set up is.
Clear as mud?

 

[Tufrthnails]

Good explanation Mt. I’ve not had the issues some of you have but I also don’t have the backcountry time in field most of you have. In the East where I spend Most if my time I’ve found boundaries to be really close to posted boundaries.

 

[Titan_Bow]

Ok maybe this well help you. The top parcel is public forests. View attachment 131105

I found this parcel in OnX just now. If you zoom in, there is a visible fence row just north of the driveway which is where the boundary most likely truly is. It’s off by 190ft. As others have stated, it’s a reference. I don’t think OnX is making any claim otherwise. When you get to a place on the ground, you have got to use some common sense to determine what the true boundary is. There is a spot where I elk hunt, where I’ve got to box around a private mining claim. I was able to actually find the survey landmark on the ground and it’s off from the OnX corner maybe 100 ft. Like others have said, out here in the West, I think I have seen way more examples personally, of land owners putting posted signs or fences or doing things to deceive the public into thinking a small piece of BLM is private when it’s actually not.


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[Stickbow]

Well what I think is interesting, is say you are near some un-fenced/posted/marked private land boundary, Onx says you are on public, but a landowner calls LEO because either you are or he thinks you are on that private chunk. Is the LEO going to write you a ticket?

How could you possibly know better than an app like onx? am I not allowed to walk within 100 yards of private land because the tools at my disposal are not that accurate? How could a landowner prove that it is private more accurately than onx besides having a surveyor right there right then saying its private? Just becuase you put a posted sign there or a fence, doesnt mean its true.

Im not looking for excuses to trespass, I just think there should be a little common sense when it comes to enforcement. I bet in general onx has created less overall trespassing.

Mostly the gated road thing bothers me. I wish I knew 100% which roads were public and which aren't. Utah has so many random two tracks...

 

[Michael54]

I'm more tolerant of a stranger using onx accidentally wandering onto my property than i would of a local that knows better. My all time favorite one i ran into a guy in my woods and he asked me if I knew I was on private property....why yes yes i do know that I am on private property, my name is on all of the signs that you blew past a 1/4 mile ago. There's always going to be a grey area with using technology in remote areas. And if its a dad and kid usually 9 times out of 10 ill point them in the right direction to see if the kid can get a shot on a deer. Yes its my property and yes I pay taxes on it but accidents do happen and getting bent out of shape about it would cause me to stroke out sooner.

 

[tdhanses]

Well what I think is interesting, is say you are near some un-fenced/posted/marked private land boundary, Onx says you are on public, but a landowner calls LEO because either you are or he thinks you are on that private chunk. Is the LEO going to write you a ticket?

How could you possibly know better than an app like onx? am I not allowed to walk within 100 yards of private land because the tools at my disposal are not that accurate? How could a landowner prove that it is private more accurately than onx besides having a surveyor right there right then saying its private? Just becuase you put a posted sign there or a fence, doesnt mean its true.

Im not looking for excuses to trespass, I just think there should be a little common sense when it comes to enforcement. I bet in general onx has created less overall trespassing.

Mostly the gated road thing bothers me. I wish I knew 100% which roads were public and which aren't. Utah has so many random two tracks...

If it goes to court ask the landowner for his survey. Don’t go by fence lines etc, most landowners think they own more then they do based off old fence lines.

A buddy of mine was buying 8 acres in the mountains that butted up to NF, had it surveyed before buying and found he really was only buying 5 acres, price was adjusted to reflect the true property size. Tax records are not the best to go off of, my neighbors loses a tenth of an acre a year on his tax records but will not do anything since that record isn’t a binding record.

So for all the land owners saying people are trespassing, have you paid to survey what you really own or are you going by county parcel/tax records, old fence lines or what a seller said? Just something to think about. Also sellers may not know the true property lines of what they are selling, survey is only way to find out.

 

[Praxeus]

I'm wondering if when you bought your little slice of heaven to gain exclusive access to the NF if you had your property surveyed? Don't recall if that was ever answered. While ONX etc. aren't perfect what resources are hunters and law enforcement supposed to use to determine property boundaries? Are they supposed to survey it? Unfortunately there are as many landowners out there trying to claim public land, roads and trails as private as there are hunters trespassing. They're all their own worst enemy.

Given your post here, you seem to give latitude to the trespassing due to using flawed lines, maps and hunting applications. My problem is this, if you have it posted, stay off the property. You cannot cross posted property using a cell phone and claim to be following some 3rd party app. I get it if it isn't posted and no one has a clue where they are but, to claim that you are on public when you are in reality on private is the gist of this. If my property stands between you and your coveted spot, too bad. Thats why we paid $$$,$$$ for the private property.

 

[204guy]

You havent answered the pertinent question that's been asked by at least 3 people. Surveyed?

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[Fatcamp]

Question not answered.

 

[Wacko]

I find the opposing viewpoints disappointing. As a landowner with absolutely no public land near me (3miles away), we still get tresspassers. Last guy told me he’s been doing it for years and since he wasn’t on my property (neighbors) I couldn’t do anything about it. So, he’s basically a poacher and a thief in my eyes. (Colorado says you must have permission even if it’s not posted)

I hunt some blm near private property. I stay outside any fences, posted areas, and a minimum of 100 yards from what OnX says is private property boundaries. It doesn’t affect my success one bit.

I think if a law enforcement officer was called to the scene, he probably wouldn’t ticket. He should take a report and if the landowner can show boundaries that means a trespassing occurred, charges could be filed. (Yes, I paid for a survey...I’m good on my fences)

I think there is a misconception that private property will be a honey hole. The animals may not get the same amount of pressure, but they get hunted. The 1800 acre ranch next to me is leased by an outfitter. He hunts it hard....really hard. I hear as much or more gunfire from the private properties around me as I ever have on public land.

I hunt public mostly, but sometimes on private. I enjoy public land more, no issues, and generally polite conversations if you bump into someone on public.... I know not always....

 

[CorbLand]

Given your post here, you seem to give latitude to the trespassing due to using flawed lines, maps and hunting applications. My problem is this, if you have it posted, stay off the property. You cannot cross posted property using a cell phone and claim to be following some 3rd party app. I get it if it isn't posted and no one has a clue where they are but, to claim that you are on public when you are in reality on private is the gist of this. If my property stands between you and your coveted spot, too bad. Thats why we paid $$$,$$$ for the private property.

So should I have stayed off the easement, state ground and forest service ground that the landowner posted as private when it was truly public? OnX and the county GIS both told me I was good to be on them but there was a hell of a lot of orange paint and no trespassing signs I walked right past.

Your missing the point. No one is advocating for trespassing, not a single person. All everyone is saying is exactly what I posted earlier. When I have an app telling me I am good and a fence line telling me I am not good, which do you trust? Because in the situations I posted earlier, I would not have been able to hunt hundreds of acres of public ground.

 

[Michael54]

So should I have stayed off the easement, state ground and forest service ground that the landowner posted as private when it was truly public? OnX and the county GIS both told me I was good to be on them but there was a hell of a lot of orange paint and no trespassing signs I walked right past.

Your missing the point. No one is advocating for trespassing, not a single person. All everyone is saying is exactly what I posted earlier. When I have an app telling me I am good and a fence line telling me I am not good, which do you trust? Because in the situations I posted earlier, I would not have been able to hunt hundreds of acres of public ground.

This is the main reason there is landlocked public land. Property owners want more than they actually own. However if there is a fence im probably going to not cross it. The headache of proving who is right and who is wrong isnt worth it in my opinion.

 

[CorbLand]

This is the main reason there is landlocked public land. Property owners want more than they actually own. However if there is a fence im probably going to not cross it. The headache of proving who is right and who is wrong isnt worth it in my opinion.

I dont until I know for certain I am good. Its actually really easy to deal with it as most land owners know what they are doing and dont really take you up on the offer to call the sheriff for them. We got him called on us turkey hunting. He came, told us we were good, told the land owner we were good and left. The one where we got kicked off the easement was a pain but in the end we had already killed the pheasants we were after and opted to leave. I did offer to call the sheriff for him and he told me that would be unnecessary if we just left. The asshole made us walk back to my buddies house and get a canoe to go back down the river to get my buddies boat. That's the part that makes me laugh about this one. We never trespassed until he made us walk out the private road 2 miles to my buddies house. The state ground one was epic considering the fact that the kid that tried kicking me off told me that the guy that manages the land gave him permission to mark it as private but couldnt give anyone permission to hunt it. I told him that I work for the state agency that manages it and I will just write my own damn permission slip. He told me I couldnt do that but I needed to contact the agency to find out who could give me permission to hunt it. I just shook my head and told him to call me in. Never did have anyone show up.

 

[Michael54]

I dont until I know for certain I am good. Its actually really easy to deal with it as most land owners know what they are doing and dont really take you up on the offer to call the sheriff for them. We got him called on us turkey hunting. He came, told us we were good, told the land owner we were good and left. The one where we got kicked off the easement was a pain but in the end we had already killed the pheasants we were after and opted to leave. I did offer to call the sheriff for him and he told me that would be unnecessary if we just left. The asshole made us walk back to my buddies house and get a canoe to go back down the river to get my buddies boat. That's the part that makes me laugh about this one. We never trespassed until he made us walk out the private road 2 miles to my buddies house. The state ground one was epic considering the fact that the kid that tried kicking me off told me that the guy that manages the land gave him permission to mark it as private but couldnt give anyone permission to hunt it. I told him that I work for the state agency that manages it and I will just write my own damn permission slip. He told me I couldnt do that but I needed to contact the agency to find out who could give me permission to hunt it. I just shook my head and told him to call me in. Never did have anyone show up.

Pheasant hunting around here in pa is a mess. Stocked birds in basically 3 locations and people everywhere. A hunter got shot by another hunter and they just left him lay there this year. Occasionally we have a few that fly onto our farm from the game lands and its a fun time. I'd love to hunt them out west sometime.

 

[Praxeus]

You havent answered the pertinent question that's been asked by at least 3 people. Surveyed?

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No. I haven't had it surveyed...yet. I shouldnt have to if property boundaries are already in place. So, my question to you and those asking is this, why should that matter if existing markers are in place?

 

[Michael54]

No. I haven't had it surveyed...yet. I shouldnt have to if property boundaries are already in place. So, my question to you and those asking is this, why should that matter if existing markers are in place?

The existing markers can be wrong. We had it out with the game commission big time when we had our property re surveyed for a parcel and their white paint was almost 350 yards onto our property down the whole line. Its still causing us headaches.

 

[Praxeus]

So should I have stayed off the easement, state ground and forest service ground that the landowner posted as private when it was truly public? OnX and the county GIS both told me I was good to be on them but there was a hell of a lot of orange paint and no trespassing signs I walked right past.

Your missing the point. No one is advocating for trespassing, not a single person. All everyone is saying is exactly what I posted earlier. When I have an app telling me I am good and a fence line telling me I am not good, which do you trust? Because in the situations I posted earlier, I would not have been able to hunt hundreds of acres of public ground.

I hear you. And- I can certainly understand the confusion. My issue (sorry for the redundancy) is that guys are knowingly trespassing when its posted and claiming that On X direct them there. After reading most of the responses. doubtful that there will be a unanimous solution.

 

[Michael54]

I hear you. And- I can certainly understand the confusion. My issue (sorry for the redundancy) is that guys are knowingly trespassing when its posted and claiming that On X direct them there. After reading most of the responses. doubtful that there will be a unanimous solution.

Short of you having it surveyed and a fence put in down the property line and taking the survey to the courthouse it sounds like you are going to have a few headaches in the future over it. On a different note if you do do that your taxes may go up as well

 

[WV Mountaineer]

No. I haven't had it surveyed...yet. I shouldnt have to if property boundaries are already in place. So, my question to you and those asking is this, why should that matter if existing markers are in place?

What are you calling property boundaries Fences? I promise if you surveyed 100 fence lines., 85 will deviate back and forth in a pretty wide margin for any distance if either side was farmed with domestic live stock, when the fences were built. Aside from set pins, marked lines and, an official survey to match and justify those land marks described as the boundary, you;ve just got the sellers word on it. which can be useless and wrong.


Start by getting your deed and see if the property description matches what you are claiming as the boundaries. If you don;t know how, pay someone who does. If they do, locate them and mark them. Or, pay someone to do it. just know this, without a survey and on the ground markings to back it up, it is only your word against someone else's.


If what you are describing as the property boundaries are actually marked survey lines, get a surveyor to come out, set up is unit, and make you a map. Most will do that very affordably. Or, see of the seller who sold it to you has a copy of theirs.