Obama Administration Bans Lead Ammo & Sinkers on Federal Lands

[KurtR]

How the f#ck does requiring lead-free ammo keep people from using public land? One arguement I see against going lead-free is the cost of ammo. Of all the sh^t hunters spend money on, ammo is one of the cheapest, even at $40 a box. Heck green box Remmy Core-locts are running $20-30 depending on what you shoot.

Maybe for the guy that shoots minute of pie plate but some people like shooting and practicing and now are they going to legislate how close you have to be. Just more worthless rules that are not based in science......

 

[El Gavilan]

Guys, first of all this is not a new rule, it has been a Directors Order for the past few years on all National Wildlife Refuges nation wide. Directors Orders are only good for 1 year. By publishing it in the federal register it makes it permanent. Lead has a deadly effect on birds that ingest it because their gizzard grinds it down to where it is absorbed into their digestive system and slowly kills them. You rarely see the carcus because predators catch and eat them when they are sick before they die. Large scavenger birds such as the California condor and the Bald Eagle get lead poisoning from scavenging hunter killed game animals and the offal from them. I even captured a sick whooping crane once in the 1980's that ended up dying from ingested lead fishing sinkers.

Sent from the Arizona desert.

 

[ChrisS]

... Just more worthless rules that are not based in science......

In point of fact, these are based on science.

 

[mmw194287]

Maybe for the guy that shoots minute of pie plate but some people like shooting and practicing and now are they going to legislate how close you have to be. Just more worthless rules that are not based in science......

Do you currently use a National Wildlife Refuge for your target practice with leadcore ammo? If not, this shouldn't affect you. If you did, it still wouldn't affect you, because it is specific to hunting.

 

[Felix40]

Ft. Riley in Manhattan is similar. You could listen to them shooting artillery all day and night when I was there. Wildlife there is plentiful as well. It may be addressed in your study, and I would be interested to know if you think there is an effect of designated firing ranges? I know at Fr. Riley all of the live fire exercises were conducted in the same area. Because of the live fire and activity you would likely see very little wildlife activity on the actual ranges due to constant disturbance. The live fire area at Riley was pretty much 24/7.

Yeah it's pretty much 24/7 there too. The bunkhouse I stayed in was near a firing range and the walls shook basically all night long. There were two streams I looked at that originate within a few hundred yards of firing ranges. In both cases I found all of the most sensitive species of invertebrates and fish. I would hate to comment on the effect it may or may not have on other wildlife. I can only say that the fs and army both monitor wildlife around the base VERY carefully. It's been a long time since I was down there but at that time I couldn't find a single decent paper showing negative effects of ammunition on wildlife.

On the other hand.....since things are rarely cut and dry. Texas just finished a study on wounding and loss rate of steel vs lead shot on doves. They determined that if you size up slightly when using steel (use 5 instead of 6) there is no difference between the two. In this case the only argument I can find against steel is that it's more expensive. As far as rifles go I still need a lot of convincing to deal with some of the shortcomings of copper.

 

[jmez]

That's interesting, thanks.

 

[KurtR]

In point of fact, these are based on science.

What animal population is suffering right now due to the use of lead bullets shooting big game? Since the ban of lead in California has the condor population taken off.

 

[backcountry_hunter]

As far as rifles go I still need a lot of convincing to deal with some of the shortcomings of copper.

My beef with it is it will be extremely difficult to chamber it in classic rifles like a 32 ws or 44-40. I have both and hunt with both, for that matter any short fat bullet is likely going to take a popularity beating because a copper counter part has to be made much longer with the equivalent weight. Most of the people saying "i don't give a rip" or "this doesn't affect me wake up every day, load their "turdy ohd six" and go to work but some of us still like shooting the odd balls. I'll live, I have other guns, I can/do shoot copper at elk but being forced to give up guns/calibers that have been around for 100+ years now because modern day science is worried about a couple extra eagles doesn't exactly thrill me.

 

[gelton]

Guys - hopefully this is much ado about nothing. I dont see the Trump admin backing all of these edicts put out by the Obama admin at the last minute. There may be some science behind it but it certainly isnt a pressing issue. Lets get the lead out of our drinking water first, then we can worry about the animals.

 

[204guy]

The article notwithstanding, pushing non-lead ammo is idiotic. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. We have a difficult time as it is recruiting new hunters and shooters. Why not make it way more expensive to enter the sport. Any viable non-toxic 22LR ammo? While monos certainly work for centerfire hunting they're hardly practical for economical practice and a non starter for long range stuff. As for eagle and condors IDGAF. There are a ton of eagles around here the only dead one's I've ever seen were on the side of the road next to other roadkill, I bet they died from lead poisoning from those wounded deer that get hit by cars. I could probably get a grant to do a scientific study to prove it even. Well before Trump I could have...

 

[Hunter Sargent]

I'll give you the BC, but everything else is BS. A very quick look at 30-06 Barnes Vortex TTSX 180's vs. Federal Premium Nosler Partion 180's shows the SAME velocity. Now I realize you can't necessarily trust factory published data, but a few feet per second either way doesn't make a difference on game. And if BC becomes a real issue due to distance, get closer to the game before shooting. How would a solid copper wear a barrel faster? Lead core bullets have a COPPER jacket. Not to mention, for the vast majority of hunters, barrel wear is non issue. Solid copper bullets have been proven over and over to be effective on game, all over the world.

I reload, and this is incorrect regarding velocity. Pure lead can be loaded to higher veloity due to more case capacity given the same weight bullet, though the difference in some loadings is minimal. I agree that the pure copper projectiles are performing very well due to their natural ability to retain maximum projectile weight as they pass through an animal. However, the long range shooters will have a fit if they have to use pure copper, they just don't retain their velocity downrange as well as lead. This likely doesn't come into play for big game hunting, but at 1000 yards the difference is quite substantial in some calibers. I haven't heard anything definitive on barrel life. Seems to me it wouldn't make any difference considering almost all big game rounds are copper jacketed anyway.

Cheers!

 

[Hunter Sargent]

Regarding birds only, I can confidently say that steel is much less effective and leads to more crippled birds. When waterfowl hunting I can just set my decoys closer to try to get closer shots, but upland hunting is another story, I can't control how far away they fly up in front of me. A few years ago while pheasant hunting I grabbed the wrong box of shells and ended up hunting with steel. Even after putting a tight choke in my shotgun (same gun I effectively use for ducks and geese) I was having a very hard time knocking down pheasants, and the ones I did knock down would take off running when they hit the ground. I'm ashamed to admit that I used 15 to 20 shells IIRC to recover two birds, and ended up driving back to the house to grab my lead shells. I know I was hitting them hard, as feathers were flying out of the birds when I shot, but the steel was just going straight through them without transferring their energy completely to the bird. The ones I recovered were because the pellets hit them in the head and upper neck area.

 

[Hunter Sargent]

Also, steel shot is more expensive, and other lead free heavy metals are extremely expensive...like $2-$3 per trigger pull expensive.

And can you imagine trying to kill a turkey with steel shot? Good luck with that unless its within 10 yards...might as well take your bow.

 

[PathFinder]

Call me a liberal but I don't have a single f*¢k to give about being able to shoot lead or not.

It's not about freedom. You already have to play by the rules to hunt legally. Regulating ammunition is just an extension of that.

"Don't call me a liberal, but I don't care if the government bans guns. It's not about freedom, it's just a regulation. I'll just hunt with my bow."

Yikes. The authoritarian left presence on this site is astounding. Sometimes I have to check to make sure I'm not on some kind of Subaru lovers forum. Nobody who understands what freedom is wants government to swing the authoritarian ban hammer at anything that might possibly have some small negative effect on something. The same train of thought that approves of such ridiculous "laws" will readily give up hunting rights in the same manner. Personally, I'm going to do whatever I want, just like always. Anyone who thinks enforcing a lead ban at government gun point is welcome to try.

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[Idaho Sandman]

Also, steel shot is more expensive, and other lead free heavy metals are extremely expensive...like $2-$3 per trigger pull expensive.

And can you imagine trying to kill a turkey with steel shot? Good luck with that unless its within 10 yards...might as well take your bow.

Killed plenty of turkey out to 40yds with steel. I rarely shoot lead, don't like to adjust for slower speeds when shooting upland so I just kept shooting it for turkey as well and it kills them just fine. I figured if I can kill a goose at 40+yds with steel and have it penetrate the breast plate into the vitals, a turkey head won't stand a chance, they don't.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Killed plenty of turkey out to 40yds with steel. I rarely shoot lead, don't like to adjust for slower speeds when shooting upland so I just kept shooting it for turkey as well and it kills them just fine. I figured if I can kill a goose at 40+yds with steel and have it penetrate the breast plate into the vitals, a turkey head won't stand a chance, they don't.

I've killed turkeys with hypersonics also.. with that said steel is not as near as lethal as lead period. Some of your more expense alloys are closer to lead but still not lead.

 

[Idaho Sandman]

I've killed turkeys with hypersonics also.. with that said steel is not as near as lethal as lead period. Some of your more expense alloys are closer to lead but still not lead.

Never said it was. Lead is the real deal but to say you can't kill a turkey with steel was silly.

 

[tipsntails7]

What animal population is suffering right now due to the use of lead bullets shooting big game? Since the ban of lead in California has the condor population taken off.

It has increased, but is that due to lack of lead being present, or an effort to fortify and grow the condor population?




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[archer wapiti]

https://www.fws.gov/cno/es/CalCondor/PDF_files/2014-9-CONDOR-Orn-Applications.pdf

The Condor is a peer-reviewed ornithological journal. The authors include several Federal Agency Scientists and several university scientists. That doesn't make this gospel nor does it make it garbage. Both get through peer review. This particular article is a review article published 2-3 years ago that attempts to synthesize available information on the subject.

I put this here because it goes into the mechanisms by which lead poisons animals, and addresses all types of birds across all habitats and potential sources of lead poisoning.

For what it's worth.