Non lead bullets and performance at distance

[Huntr]

No smart ass remark intended, just an actual real world example. Also, they tout the LRX to be good down to 1600fps and people actually believe it.

Well you pulled it out of the moose- so he's probably dead. But smart ass comments aside, that is exactly how a Barnes is going to look at that impact velo. Their design gives you lots of penetration, high weight retention, and relatively small wound channels.

 

[Redwing]

Attached is a pic of a 7mm 139gr LRX pulled out in of an Alaskan moose- impact velocity was 1,950fps. Not what I would call ideal.

Where was impact location and what was the damage like?

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

 

[DawnPatrol]

Me to Barnes:
“What’s the minimum velocity I need to get a 168 TTSX to “open” reliably? How about the 150 gr? I heard the 168 gr bullets were specifically designed to open a lower speeds—any truth to that rumor?”

Barnes to Me:
“The rumors are true. The 30 cal 168 gr TTSX, designed for 308 Win and 30-06 velocities (though it can be effectively used from the 300 Magnum cartridges) has a minimum impact velocity of 1500 fps which will get you about 1.7x expansion of the bullet’s original diameter. If 2x expansion is desired then add approximately 100-200 fps.

The 30 cal 150 gr TTSX, on the other hand, has a higher, 2000 fps, minimum. At the request of many 300 Magnum shooters, we increased the minimum so that should a high velocity impact occur at close range their is less chance of loosing weight from petal loss.”

 

[Trackselk]

Just had to add my experiences with monos on the last 16 animals I've shot with them.
-7 elk, most DRT, one 300, 2 a little over 400 yards, factory .308 barnes ttsx 150's. One hyped up big bull made it about 100 yards, 1 bad hit still recovered same day, all the others were less than half of that. All but 2 were simply lung shots...
-7 muleys, same ttsx 150's, out to about 340 yards, most much closer, lung shots, only one went more than 30 yards, but it was a poor liver hit.
-switched to bulldozer II 70grain 22 creedmoor going 3559 fps (BC .47). Sheds petals at that speed. One bull, about 350 yards, made it 100 yards slowly, lung shot. One deer, made it less than 100 yards.

The bull was bedded, and I was taking a steep downward shot, exited the ribcage and almost blew his foot off, hit ankle. Internal damage similar to the above barnes .308 150's (thanks @Formidilosus for the advice!)
That's 16 for 16 with monos.
Yes, explosive lead bullets kill faster usually, but copper kills a whole lot faster than an arrow...

-Load 30-06 hot with some high BC copper and you can shoot beyond 400 with an 18" barrel in my estimation.

22 creedmoor dinner:

 

[hibernation]

Me to Barnes:
“What’s the minimum velocity I need to get a 168 TTSX to “open” reliably? How about the 150 gr? I heard the 168 gr bullets were specifically designed to open a lower speeds—any truth to that rumor?”

Barnes to Me:
“The rumors are true. The 30 cal 168 gr TTSX, designed for 308 Win and 30-06 velocities (though it can be effectively used from the 300 Magnum cartridges) has a minimum impact velocity of 1500 fps which will get you about 1.7x expansion of the bullet’s original diameter. If 2x expansion is desired then add approximately 100-200 fps.

The 30 cal 150 gr TTSX, on the other hand, has a higher, 2000 fps, minimum. At the request of many 300 Magnum shooters, we increased the minimum so that should a high velocity impact occur at close range their is less chance of loosing weight from petal loss.”

Why would they make this so hard to find? You'd think they would want hunters to understand differences in their products, especially if they designed them that way.

 

[Macintosh]

good question. It's also frustrating tht you get different answers depending on who you talk to. It seems to be a game of random numbers sometimes. I emailed a similar question a month or three ago about a different bullet and was told 1400fps, which is significantly lower than I've ever heard. It seems they are all over the map and its hard to take seriously as a result. And, given the info on fragmenting bullets and how they damage, I'm not clear why they would be worried about losing a petal?? The rest of the world is trying to figure out how to reliably lose petals becasue they get faster kills that way, and Barnes is reducing the effective range of their bullets in order to prevent losing a petal? I still say some of the flack copper gets is way overblown for most average hunters who arent shooting past 400 yards anyway, but Barnes seems to have a hard time getting out of their own way sometimes.

 

[willfrye027]

Here’s my problem with “minimum” expansion in the copper bullets. BC is poor. In the field, making an accurate shot at a distance approaching your “minimum” impact is going to be very very challenging. Small ranging errors or miscalculations, a slight gust of wind or change in direction…you’re looking at a miss or a wound.

It’s not just the numbers on paper I encourage you guys to actually see how reliably you can make that shot, with copper…knowing the wound channel is going to be marginal at best and a good hit is crucial.

I went down this road and concluded it’s just not worth it. But hey if you have the rig and the $$ to spend practicing with them, go for it. Just don’t expect great results when you have not seen how these bullets behave in the wind down towards minimum velocity.

Absolutely for moderate range stuff they work fine, I use them quite a bit in my home state and things die.

 

[PLhunter]

I have a 6.5 creedmoor that has never fired a lead projectile. It reliably rings steel out to 650 yards which is plenty for me. Played around to 895 and can’t say it performed much worse or better than friends playing with lead loads.

I’ve performed or seen performed dozens of non lead bullet kills. None at extreme ranges but several long shots. Most have been with hammer bullets but several Barnes and badlands mixed in as well. 450 yard pronghorn in extreme winds (windiest conditions I’ve seen an animal taken in), 550 yard mule deer breezy, 450 yard mule deer calm, 500 yard mule deer breezy, 400 yard pronghorn windy, whitetail does a handful at 400ish zero issues.

One thing I will note is frustration with hammers regarding the bc and consistency in bc calculations from rifle to rifle. Absolutely a bullet you can’t just calculate but have to determine your hit points with live rounds. Badlands have seemed much more consistent and easy to calculate your bc but no bullet I’ve ever messed with is as easy to accurately load for than the hammers. The badlands line gets rid of a lot of the low bc concerns people have with monos. One of those kills above though was 550 yards with a 168 grain Barnes out of a 30-06. Quartering away full pass through out the offside shoulder with a good wound cavity. That was my lowest impact velocity of the bunch.

 

[JFK]

Here’s my problem with “minimum” expansion in the copper bullets. BC is poor. In the field, making an accurate shot at a distance approaching your “minimum” impact is going to be very very challenging. Small ranging errors or miscalculations, a slight gust of wind or change in direction…you’re looking at a miss or a wound.

It’s not just the numbers on paper I encourage you guys to actually see how reliably you can make that shot, with copper…knowing the wound channel is going to be marginal at best and a good hit is crucial.

I went down this road and concluded it’s just not worth it. But hey if you have the rig and the $$ to spend practicing with them, go for it. Just don’t expect great results when you have not seen how these bullets behave in the wind down towards minimum velocity.

Absolutely for moderate range stuff they work fine, I use them quite a bit in my home state and things die.

If you have a cartridge that achieves the necessary speed, the Barnes LRX are fine at 500 yards and in. Some of the smaller mfg’s like McGuire offer bullets that will safely take you to 600+ yards and still be going fast enough to safely open up. As far as hit rates at distance….are they they very best option for longer distances? Probably not. I was just shooting yesterday with Barnes lrx to 600, in variable wind. First round hits at 600 are not an issue. So I wouldn’t say it’s “very, very challenging” Most people that would miss with a quality mono would also miss with a Berger, eldm, etc. Fundamentals and a bad wind call will burn you long before a less than perfect BC does.

 

[z987k]

Here’s my problem with “minimum” expansion in the copper bullets. BC is poor. In the field, making an accurate shot at a distance approaching your “minimum” impact is going to be very very challenging. Small ranging errors or miscalculations, a slight gust of wind or change in direction…you’re looking at a miss or a wound.

It’s not just the numbers on paper I encourage you guys to actually see how reliably you can make that shot, with copper…knowing the wound channel is going to be marginal at best and a good hit is crucial.

I went down this road and concluded it’s just not worth it. But hey if you have the rig and the $$ to spend practicing with them, go for it. Just don’t expect great results when you have not seen how these bullets behave in the wind down towards minimum velocity.

Absolutely for moderate range stuff they work fine, I use them quite a bit in my home state and things die.

The bullet I shoot most in copper has a .71G1 BC. I don't think there's a higher BC bullet at any weight of any construction for that caliber(27). I also wasn't aware that's poor bc. Minimum impact is way past where I've ever had to shoot an animal at, so I'm not terribly concerned about it. Wind hold at 500y in a 10mph full value crosswind is only 2.2moa. Less than any lead bullet in this caliber.

 

[willfrye027]

The bullet I shoot most in copper has a .71G1 BC. I don't think there's a higher BC bullet at any weight of any construction for that caliber(27). I also wasn't aware that's poor bc. Minimum impact is way past where I've ever had to shoot an animal at, so I'm not terribly concerned about it. Wind hold at 500y in a 10mph full value crosswind is only 2.2moa. Less than any lead bullet in this caliber.

Impressive, what bullet? Sounds like you have a purpose built rig for this..which is a whole different discussion. What’s the terminal performance been like? I have killed animals with copper bullets at distance with rigs built specifically for it, and it was a rodeo half the time, terminal ballistics has been a major issue at lower impact velocity personally.

 

[willfrye027]

If you have a cartridge that achieves the necessary speed, the Barnes LRX are fine at 500 yards and in. Some of the smaller mfg’s like McGuire offer bullets that will safely take you to 600+ yards and still be going fast enough to safely open up. As far as hit rates at distance….are they they very best option for longer distances? Probably not. I was just shooting yesterday with Barnes lrx to 600, in variable wind. First round hits at 600 are not an issue. So I wouldn’t say it’s “very, very challenging” Most people that would miss with a quality mono would also miss with a Berger, eldm, etc. Fundamentals and a bad wind call will burn you long before a less than perfect BC does.

Bullets may open up but with low velocity you are not getting much of a wound channel..to each their own.

And what is your 600 yard copper bullet and load that is easy to make hits with? Happy to run a WEZ analysis on hit rates for that versus a comparable lead bullet. 600 yards is a long ways even with a good BC.

It’s wonderful that you guys feel so confident in your long range copper bullets, I wish you the best of luck making clean kills way out there. Which has not been my experience for reasons of decreased hit rates and poor terminal performance.

 

[z987k]

Impressive, what bullet? Sounds like you have a purpose built rig for this..which is a whole different discussion. What’s the terminal performance been like? I have killed animals with copper bullets at distance with rigs built specifically for it, and it was a rodeo half the time, terminal ballistics has been a major issue at lower impact velocity personally.

It's the 150gr badlands in 277. You can shoot this out of a factory 6.8W or any 1-8 twist 270win/wildcat(I think winchester is fast twisting their 270wins these days), but I do have a semi-custom rig with a long throat for this long bullet. Inside 500y, the impact velocity is way higher than minimum. I agree that low impact velocity with copper is less than ideal. Push them fast and keep them fast. I haven't had an impact below 2200fps, but at least at that speed they work great. I wouldn't advise anyone get below 2000fps with any copper bullet. Some, even higher. Which, with the crap BC on some of them(ttsx, CX, e-tip, hammer, etc) makes a really short range gun.
Apex, McGuire and Badlands bullets don't have crap BC's. All 3 operate a bit differently, so one can decide how they like their bullets to perform terminally.

 

[willfrye027]

It's the 150gr badlands in 277. You can shoot this out of a factory 6.8W or any 1-8 twist 270win/wildcat(I think winchester is fast twisting their 270wins these days), but I do have a semi-custom rig with a long throat for this long bullet. Inside 500y, the impact velocity is way higher than minimum. I agree that low impact velocity with copper is less than ideal. Push them fast and keep them fast. I haven't had an impact below 2200fps, but at least at that speed they work great. I wouldn't advise anyone get below 2000fps with any copper bullet. Some, even higher. Which, with the crap BC on some of them(ttsx, CX, e-tip, hammer, etc) makes a really short range gun.
Apex, McGuire and Badlands bullets don't have crap BC's. All 3 operate a bit differently, so one can decide how they like their bullets to perform terminally.

I shot 6 animals with the 110gr .257 SBDII and had extremely variable terminal performance, shot a 100lb deer 5 times through the chest until I finally hit him in the face bedded down still alive. 2100-2200 fps impact IIRC. Bullets opened but damage was minimal though the vitals. When I hit bone they were devastating and a few even tumbled which was nice..ribs/lungs and it was a quarter sized wound through lung and liver tissue.

I don’t doubt your experience or data, just adding mine to the discussion.

 

[JFK]

Bullets may open up but with low velocity you are not getting much of a wound channel..to each their own.

And what is your 600 yard copper bullet and load that is easy to make hits with? Happy to run a WEZ analysis on hit rates for that versus a comparable lead bullet. 600 yards is a long ways even with a good BC.

It’s wonderful that you guys feel so confident in your long range copper bullets, I wish you the best of luck making clean kills way out there. Which has not been my experience for reasons of decreased hit rates and poor terminal performance.

I don’t disagree with you. Lead is better for shooting animals at long distances.

I also agree that 600 is a pretty long ways, and I don’t take shots at game at 600, but do practice that far, and consistently hitting 12” steel has not proven to be extremely difficult. 500 is about where I limit myself while hunting based on the velocity of the bullet. My point was just that it’s not some impossible task to hit your target at extended ranges with cooper bullets, and that the velocity window of some of the faster cartridges can take you to some decent distances, albeit not true long range distances. I live and hunt mostly in Ca so I’m forced to make the most of what’s available to me.

If you wanted to run it in the wez that would be cool to see and much appreciated. I’m interested in what it would show. It’s a .277 129gr LRX. G1 of .463, or G7 of .229. Avg muzzle velocity of 3056fps.

 

[z987k]

I shot 6 animals with the 110gr .257 SBDII and had extremely variable terminal performance, shot a 100lb deer 5 times through the chest until I finally hit him in the face bedded down still alive. 2100-2200 fps impact IIRC. Bullets opened but damage was minimal though the vitals. When I hit bone they were devastating and a few even tumbled which was nice..ribs/lungs and it was a quarter sized wound through lung and liver tissue.

I don’t doubt your experience or data, just adding mine to the discussion.

Ya, if I had that experience, I'd never use them.

 

[willfrye027]

I don’t disagree with you. Lead is better for shooting animals at long distances.

I also agree that 600 is a pretty long ways, and I don’t take shots at game at 600, but do practice that far, and consistently hitting 12” steel has not proven to be extremely difficult. 500 is about where I limit myself while hunting based on the velocity of the bullet. My point was just that it’s not some impossible task to hit your target at extended ranges with cooper bullets, and that the velocity window of some of the faster cartridges can take you to some decent distances, albeit not true long range distances. I live and hunt mostly in Ca so I’m forced to make the most of what’s available to me.

If you wanted to run it in the wez that would be cool to see and much appreciated. I’m interested in what it would show. It’s a .277 129gr LRX. G1 of .463, or G7 of .229. Avg muzzle velocity of 3056fps.

Yeah I can run it. Want me to compare to a similar Berger? Is this from a .270?

My guess is going to be the more wind and wind uncertainty is going to kill the hit rate between the two, this has been my experience anyways

 

[willfrye027]

Ya, if I had that experience, I'd never use them.

I do think larger diameter monos seem to do better. And thicker skinned animals like pigs seem to help with terminal performance. Our tiny little blacktails I try to hit through shoulder bone personally.

 

[JFK]

Yeah I can run it. Want me to compare to a similar Berger? Is this from a .270?

My guess is going to be the more wind and wind uncertainty is going to kill the hit rate between the two, this has been my experience anyways

Yes, I should have said that. 270win. A side by side comparison would be great.

 

[SDHNTR]

Threads like this make me laugh. Animals don’t have ballistic calculators. Go hunting, learn your craft and quit worrying about this type of nonsense.