No elk recovery, blame the broadhead?

[Texasbuckeye]

I would say there is some good wisdom in this thread. 66yards uphill is a shot that will end up with a downward pointing broadhead and could very easily hit low and give good bright red blood that drips but then stops. Could easily have hit one lung low and not both. I can see many possibles.

way too many variables to control for a 66yard shot. That’s long.

One question, was the range angle compensated or no? A 66yard shot is dropping hard at the end. A yard or two makes a pretty decent difference in angle and drop.

 

[Coveyleader]

BHs do matter. You can blame them, but many times, the one to blame is looking back at you in the mirror. That is where certain BHs make that same guy in the mirror smile. The more I see and witness with mechanicals, the more I'm leaning towards using them. The carnage I saw a couple days ago with a bad shot on an elk was another positive towards using big heads. Imagine a hit 1 inch up from the bottom of the liver, and straight back into the guts and the bull didn't go 60-80 yds with the most gruesome dark blood everywhere I've ever seen. I've never seen that with the little fixed blades but then again, I'm never that lucky to recover shitty shots and I have a few I wish I had a big mechanical on the end of my arrow.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

BHs do matter. You can blame them, but many times, the one to blame is looking back at you in the mirror. That is where certain BHs make that same guy in the mirror smile. The more I see and witness with mechanicals, the more I'm leaning towards using them. The carnage I saw a couple days ago with a bad shot on an elk was another positive towards using big heads. Imagine a hit 1 inch up from the bottom of the liver, and straight back into the guts and the bull didn't go 60-80 yds with the most gruesome dark blood everywhere I've ever seen. I've never seen that with the little fixed blades but then again, I'm never that lucky to recover shitty shots and I have a few I wish I had a big mechanical on the end of my arrow.

Which head was that?

 

[Coveyleader]

Which head was that?

NAP Spitfire 1.5"

 

[LoggerDan]

Sadly, I have noticed an upward trend in lost animals during the archery season. There seems to be two things that keep popping up.

 

[Coveyleader]

Sadly, I have noticed an upward trend in lost animals during the archery season. There seems to be two things that keep popping up.

I don't know if it's an upward trend, but I have to agree. Long shots being one of the culprits, but a guy I bumped into lost a nice bull at 3 yds, shot through the brush "he was so close". BUTTTTT we sit here all nice an calm, but when a big bull, or any bull is close, the excitement level is high, the door ready to close, poor judgement comes into play. It's almost a form of target panic.

I started a thread awhile back about close shot vs long shot recoveries. I'm not a long shot guy, but my average elk recovery distance over time I bet is less than 50 -60 yds. I've been on many receoveries and it always seems the longer the shot, the longer the recovery.

 

[Billy Goat]

NAP Spitfire 1.5"

I have seen a lot of elk succumb to the original spitfire.

Unfortunately, they ain't what they use to be.
Still a good head, but not what they were it seems.

 

[Billy Goat]

Sadly, I have noticed an upward trend in lost animals during the archery season. There seems to be two things that keep popping up.

I see it across the board.

Plenty of people trust their rangefinders.


Problem is they haven't spent enough time with their equipment. Doesn't matter if it's archery, muzzleloader or rifle.


I don't think it's as bad as it was before laser rangefinders tho.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Center of the lungs is perfect placement for me. Hit there they’ll bleed like a stuck pig even with a 2 blade head. Hit top of lungs near the edges and it gets worse.

Mid body height is too high. This entrance is less than 2" below the spine on this Bull and he didn't bleed worth a darn. Pic is a little deceiving because I rolled him.
View attachment 606698


View attachment 606706

this bull never bleed a drop and went 239 yards. white is the arrow fletching

 

[WTNUT]

Not blaming the equipment, I specifically said that in the post. Just looking for opinions, thanks.

My “opinion” - you might consider not shooting longer than 45 yards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Zac]

My opinion is that you should never post one of these experiences. I know you feel a need to let everything out and process the event. However all you get is pure bullshit for responses. You made the best shot you could at the time, and you made the best recovery effort that you could. Best thing you can do is forgive yourself and never visit this thread again.

 

[CMF]

I think the trend toward smaller heads that fly well can potentially cause issues on fringe shots. Not sure the head but some of the newer heads are tiny. They say “total cut area with bleeder”, take out the bleeder and you’ve got a tiny 2 blade.

What kind of issues on fringe shots? I feel like the smaller heads offer better penetration on fringe shots like quartering to. 3 of the last 4 animals I shot were with Killer Bee 7/8" 2 blade heads(no bleeder), a bull elk frontal, a small muley frontal, and a whitetail doe broadside. Muley went 30 yds, elk went 200 yds, some of which was rolling downhill, and the doe went about 100 with a massive blood trail.

So my question of "what would you do?" . Is when I Chase elk again next year Do I shoot the same head and assume shot placement was the issue. Or do I switch to a 3 blade / different head?

I would make an effort to get a dog on the trail. I know it's usually harder to find out west, but it's worth putting the effort in to find someone with a dog. Post on the forum, FB groups etc. If someone is in range, they'll likely make the trip.
If it's dead, a good dog will find it.

 

[Bump79]

What kind of issues on fringe shots? I feel like the smaller heads offer better penetration on fringe shots like quartering to.

Fringe shots means marginal hits. Too far back, too high, etc.

This small 2b broadhead penetration craze is kind of an online phenomena. The question we should be focused on is lethality. Is penetration THE lethality problem we should be focusing on at all costs? I see you commented on this post I made but only 7% of respondents on a poll put out across various platforms thought that losing an animal was due to lack of penetration. Obviously polls are tough to gain a full picture but doesn't seem like it's THE problem. This matches with hunters experiences that I know personally as well.

Most mechanical shooters I know don't even have a problem with penetration and definitely don't have lethality problems. It's an issue derived from whitetail hunting TV shooters marketing poorly designed dull 2"+ cut mechanicals with low grade aluminum ferrules, screwed on a light weight likely underspined arrows with super low FOC, out of a bow that doesn't even shoot those mechanicals straight and they sighted in to the crooked flying mechanical. Literally the worst setup you could dream of but not necessarily relevant to real life..

We should be selecting our broadheads based on your individual specifications and select it to address multiple lethality problems. If we're thinking about shot likelihood - statistically what is the most likely error? Just due to pure anatomy if a broadhead doesn't impact where you intend it to - then it's much more likely to be far back, too high, etc. than impact a bone on the near side that is realistically going to be a problem. If a fixed broadhead doesn't impact hard bone both a 1-3/16" 4b and you're 7/8" will pass through. Both will go through ribs and scapula no problem. There's WAY more liver, diaphragm, stomach, guts, etc. than there is big bone that hunters should be exclusively concerned about. Which head would you feel better about with that scenario?

Will a 7/8" 2b work on a good shot? Yeah, so will about anything. Will it help penetration on a frontal? Sure but my 3b and 4b's blows through everything too including an elk frontals. My 3b's and 4b's tend to blow through animals so fast I barely know what happened. I love frontals on elk within 25 yds, mulies I'd be more sketched out by unless it's 20 and in. Penetration with sharp fixed broadheads out of the average compound shooters bow is just not the problem it's made out to be. Shoot well designed 3b/4b broadheads, get them as sharp as possible, set your bow up properly and tune the arrow to it. Unless you have a 25.5" draw shooting 55# I would never recommend someone to shoot a 7/8" broadhead on elk. Not to be a jerk but pretty much any killer I know would laugh at it. The penetration gains from even a 1-1/8" is so marginal. Most guides would be sketched out as they know their life is going to suck if you make a less than ideal shot. Heck a lot of elk guides I know now are using mechanicals or hybrids on elk.

Many more animals are lost due to shots to far back than are lost due to lack of penetration. Realistically, of all wounding scenarios I would much rather it be that I found my arrow and it had 2" of blood on it. I'd put that arrow back in my quiver knowing that the animal likely suffered no more than a flesh wound. A shot too far back is a slow, terrible death sentence and blood trails tend to suck.. I want to cause as much damage as possible while still most likely obtaining a pass through. It's not just about blood trails, it's about what you "clip".

Also, quartering to shots have and will remain a low percentage shot regardless of your setup (depending on how steel quartering it is). I just lost a whitetail doe at 10yds on a quartering shot. Blew right through her but it clearly hit further back than I intended. It's a damn small window. Lost a bull last year not taking account enough of the quartering angle. Depending on how steel the angle is, it's a just low percentage shot - regardless of what broadhead you're shooting. I'm not saying I'll never take one but I'd My lesson learned - most quartering to shots are easily avoided by waiting a split second or two.

IMHO there will come a time that the 7/8" with no bleeders will bite you. The best advise is to use setup that is good all around - still likely to pass through the vast majority of the time and you've still got enough cut to help out on a marginal shot. There's a good reason that the majority of the hunting industry has moved to vented 3 blades or 4 blades (including 2b with bleeders). You get a larger cut while still maintaining good arrow flight. It's not some conspiracy theory against Ashby Fdn. It's just what tends to work best for the most scenarios.

 

[Scoot]

Best thing you can do is forgive yourself and never visit this thread again.

That's one approach. Another would be to listen to a bunch of people who probably have a lot more experience than the OP and try to actually learn something from their responses. The OP was either trying to do that or was trying to get people to help protect his ego by saying it was the fault of something other than his shooting and/or his decision to shoot.

 

[Zac]

That's one approach. Another would be to listen to a bunch of people who probably have a lot more experience than the OP and try to actually learn something from their responses. The OP was either trying to do that or was trying to get people to help protect his ego by saying it was the fault of something other than his shooting and/or his decision to shoot.

Believe what you want. It’s human nature to attack someone when they are in a vulnerable state and that is what will happen each and every time. Most on here have been in a similar situation and kept their mouths shut. However they are more than willing to pick up a stone.

 

[Larry Bartlett]

when we share our experiences we learn some stuff, even when it hurts to read arm-chair coaches expert opinions. Take what's replied, especially when requested, in this thread and squeeze lemon juice from the sours. Wisdom is all over these posts despite critiques.

I've lost a couple of animals to my own arrogant confidence in the last 20 years and had reasons I could site, but in the end I lost those critters and I feel like shit enough to do what I can next time to never let that happen again.

fine tune your range, get closer to your target, deliver a confident blow next time and know you're a better hunter because of it.

 

[manitou1]

Sorry to hear this man.

Anybody that hunts long enough can testify that on rare occasions an apparent good hit (rifle or bow) will result in a lost animal.
It is an anomoly.

Some years ago, I sunk an arrow to the fletching in a large buck just at the last rib and the arrow stopped when it hit bone in the opposite side shoulder. This shot should have "cleaned house" as it has many times before. I heard the buck go down thrashing. After about thirty minutes of waiting I went to retrieve the deer. He was gone! He ran through rain flooded fields, causing me to lose his blood trail.
That had deer dropped in an open field in tall grass with 4-6" of water in it.

I have experienced similar with blackpowder shots on two occasions.

We all know "that guy" that swears that his shot was true and the animal disappeared. Fact is, people get excited and think they see what they hope to see.
Many if us have also witnessed what should have been a textbook shot that failed to kill effectively.

Bullet performance and arrows can sometimes be unpredictable. There are those "legends" of the "no-man's land" where an animal can be hit high chest and live for another day.

I am nearly convinced that some of these anomolies are caused by the arrow or (blackpowder bullets in my case, with low hydro shock) lacing through/around organs causing little damage... at least not enough for a quick kill. We have all seen graphic images of people that have been shot (I personally know two) in the vitals or the head and survived just due to the fact that somehow the projectile avoided the vital organ by milimeters.

Personally, if your broadhead has good reviews and a proven track record I wouldn't hesitate to continue using it.
We also know that confidence is a large part of the success equation... so if you lack confidence in that broadhead and know it will be eating at the back of your mind, maybe it is time for a change.
Broadheads are a minor expense when considering the overall cost of hunting gear.

 

[MattB]

Sorry to hear this man.

Anybody that hunts long enough can testify that on rare occasions an apparent good hit (rifle or bow) will result in a lost animal.
It is an anomoly.

Some years ago, I sunk an arrow to the fletching in a large buck just at the last rib and the arrow stopped when it hit bone in the opposite side shoulder. This shot should have "cleaned house" as it has many times before. I heard the buck go down thrashing. After about thirty minutes of waiting I went to retrieve the deer. He was gone! He ran through rain flooded fields, causing me to lose his blood trail.
That had deer dropped in an open field in tall grass with 4-6" of water in it.

I have experienced similar with blackpowder shots on two occasions.

We all know "that guy" that swears that his shot was true and the animal disappeared. Fact is, people get excited and think they see what they hope to see.
Many if us have also witnessed what should have been a textbook shot that failed to kill effectively.

Bullet performance and arrows can sometimes be unpredictable. There are those "legends" of the "no-man's land" where an animal can be hit high chest and live for another day.

I am nearly convinced that some of these anomolies are caused by the arrow or (blackpowder bullets in my case, with low hydro shock) lacing through/around organs causing little damage... at least not enough for a quick kill. We have all seen graphic images of people that have been shot (I personally know two) in the vitals or the head and survived just due to the fact that somehow the projectile avoided the vital organ by milimeters.

Personally, if your broadhead has good reviews and a proven track record I wouldn't hesitate to continue using it.
We also know that confidence is a large part of the success equation... so if you lack confidence in that broadhead and know it will be eating at the back of your mind, maybe it is time for a change.
Broadheads are a minor expense when considering the overall cost of hunting gear.

A good friend and former hunting guide (guided archery hunters for ~25 years) always asked his hunters "what did you see?" after the shot. When they would find the animal, rarely would they see what the hunter thought they saw.

 

[CMF]

This small 2b broadhead penetration craze is kind of an online phenomena.

I suppose if you disregard the thousands of years of effective stone point use....

The question we should be focused on is lethality. Is penetration THE lethality problem we should be focusing on at all costs?

I agree, lethality is the focus. And I don't think penetration should be the sole focus based on your data.
Your data shows that accuracy is the #1 problem, shot placement is a combined 74%.
Accuracy is the other reason I shoot small 2b. My experience has been that smaller 2-blade heads group better than 3/4b or larger heads.
Most will agree that smaller heads are less affected by wind drift than larger heads. (accuracy)

Most mechanical shooters I know don't even have a problem with penetration and definitely don't have lethality problems.

I've always had problems with penetration with mechs. I even went to heavier arrows, now shooting 480 and I shot my mule deer this year with a 1.5" Sevr. broadside and it did not make it through the opposite shoulder. He did only run 50 yards and I don't question the lethality of mechanical heads, I've always had them kill, but I've had several other whitetails not get pass thru with NAP killzones and rages.

We should be selecting our broadheads based on your individual specifications and select it to address multiple lethality problems. If we're thinking about shot likelihood - statistically what is the most likely error? Just due to pure anatomy if a broadhead doesn't impact where you intend it to - then it's much more likely to be far back, too high, etc. than impact a bone on the near side that is realistically going to be a problem. If a fixed broadhead doesn't impact hard bone both a 1-3/16" 4b and you're 7/8" will pass through. Both will go through ribs and scapula no problem. There's WAY more liver, diaphragm, stomach, guts, etc. than there is big bone that hunters should be exclusively concerned about. Which head would you feel better about with that scenario?

I see your point that a bigger head will do more damage if it hits vital organs, and I don't disagree, but if shooting that bigger head means you're less accurate and less likely to get thru bone when needed, then I don't see a net benefit.
It's hard for me to believe that 7/8 thru the liver won't kill, but a 1.5 will. and if it's all gut with nothing major, it won't die in a reasonable time no matter the head.

Will a 7/8" 2b work on a good shot? Yeah, so will about anything. Will it help penetration on a frontal? Sure but my 3b and 4b's blows through everything too including an elk frontals. My 3b's and 4b's tend to blow through animals so fast I barely know what happened. I love frontals on elk within 25 yds, mulies I'd be more sketched out by unless it's 20 and in. Penetration with sharp fixed broadheads out of the average compound shooters bow is just not the problem it's made out to be. Shoot well designed 3b/4b broadheads, get them as sharp as possible, set your bow up properly and tune the arrow to it. Unless you have a 25.5" draw shooting 55# I would never recommend someone to shoot a 7/8" broadhead on elk. Not to be a jerk but pretty much any killer I know would laugh at it. The penetration gains from even a 1-1/8" is so marginal. Most guides would be sketched out as they know their life is going to suck if you make a less than ideal shot. Heck a lot of elk guides I know now are using mechanicals or hybrids on elk.

I think penetration is sometimes underrated, a larger cutting head isn't doing as much damage if it doesn't penetrate. More penetration=longer wound channel=more cut area
I'm not hating on 3/4b fixed heads, I think they do well. I had two exodus blow through an elk with no problem and muzzies and g5's on whitetails. I've just had less than consistent results with accuracy over the years.

Will a 7/8" 2b work on a good shot?

Any head will work on a good shot.
But will a 7/8" 2b work on a bad shot through heavier bone and tissue, yes, better than a larger or mechanical one.
I think the only argument you're making for the bigger heads is more cutting area of nonvital organs and blood vessels on a bad shot. I can agree it makes sense, but can you prove its x amount more lethal than x size head? and is that worth the loss of pen on other bad shots?
A smaller head is still doing a lot of damage when you consider the length of a wound channel(which is also longer when you have complete penetration)
I don't see a smaller head, on bad shots, being the problem it's made out to be.

Not to be a jerk but pretty much any killer I know would laugh at it

Here's one for them to laugh at, #164

Also, quartering to shots have and will remain a low percentage shot regardless of your setup (depending on how steel quartering it is). I just lost a whitetail doe at 10yds on a quartering shot. Blew right through her but it clearly hit further back than I intended. It's a damn small window. Lost a bull last year not taking account enough of the quartering angle. Depending on how steel the angle is, it's a just low percentage shot - regardless of what broadhead you're shooting. I'm not saying I'll never take one but I'd My lesson learned - most quartering to shots are easily avoided by waiting a split second or two.

IMHO there will come a time that the 7/8" with no bleeders will bite you. The best advise is to use setup that is good all around - still likely to pass through the vast majority of the time and you've still got enough cut to help out on a marginal shot. There's a good reason that the majority of the hunting industry has moved to vented 3 blades or 4 blades (including 2b with bleeders). You get a larger cut while still maintaining good arrow flight. It's not some conspiracy theory against Ashby Fdn. It's just what tends to work best for the most scenarios.

I agree quartering are lower percentage, but I hunt public land and I'm taking my first decent opportunity, and for a deer, probably not an elk, I'll take a quarter too.

I do plan on going up to the IW or day six 1-1/16" head, I haven't decided on bleeders yet. I've mostly been shooting the killer bees, cause they're the most accurate I've found. I've recently gone to helical for better accuracy and hope to get a slightly larger head to fly better, but I still think 7/8" will do the job.

 

[jdmaxwell]

Shot to far.. and probably not broadhead fault.