NM landowner tags under fire

[Jimbee]

I don't see an issue with a landowner getting a tag for their own property for their own use.

 

[Legend]

Ted Turner has two 100k acre + ranches here, both holding tons of game. Their prices are actually reasonable, compared to the going rate for Unit Wide tags (I bought my son an Oryx tag last year). They have a sizeable staff that manages everything - cowboys to move animals, maintenance for water tanks, roads, gates, multiple biologists to monitor for disease and population, cooks, cleaning staff, etc. It's a money making operation for sure, but not just some auto-managed private Yellowstone.

There just aren't that many 1,000 acre + ranches where these Billionaires can do what you're thinking, and most would rather make money off it by selling hunts. Maybe they do help themselves to a bull or two a year, but not the scenario you're imagining.

In Montana Turner bought several ranches. And in doing so has artificially driven land prices up. We'll him and all the out of state money. This has been very hard on the agriculture community as the next generation has lost a place to buy or rent.

From a big picture/long game view I see no upside to LO tags.

 

[Laelkhunter]

Unless I am mistaken, in NM the landowner can sell his LO tags to anyone to be used in that GMU. I know of an outfit in unit 4 that advertised in local shops in Chama to purchase any landowner tags for that unit. As a result, the LO of smaller ranches sold their tags to this outfitter. The landowner didn't have to put up with hunters on their ranch but was able to make some money selling their tags. The ranch the outfitter guided on was over hunted to the point that made it difficult to find a legal bull.

 

[louisianahunter]

So you don't feel landowners should get tags to the animals on their land? So if you owned 100k acres and you didn't draw a tag, you don't get to hunt?

The whole concept of the north American model is against this. Just bc you own the land doesn't mean you own the animals. There is no "the kings deer".

 

[roadrunner]

If there were only draw tags and no LO tags, we would end up in the same boat. There would be too many people on public and all the elk would head for private. The land owners would sell access to the land.

No, that's not the point to putting UW LO tags into the draw. The intent would be make people who use the EPLUS UW system as a backup to choose a LO tag hunt code as one of their choices. They go into it full well knowing what the price of the tag is.

The LO will get a check if that hunter draws before the ranch authorization is released to validate the tag. Most people would choose the LO tag as a 3rd choice, some may put LO tags down as all 3. Competition would be light.

If there are leftover LO tags after the draw, they can be sold at will by the LO.

This would be for UW only. RO would remain as it is. All the EPLUS rules would remain the same.

 

[mdp22]

If the E-PLUS tags go away and into the public i the draw doesn't mean the elk jump over to public land. Access would still be an issue and money would have to be spent. While not a perfect program it opens up alot of land to hunt. Where I hunt the UW ranches all hold elk and have good habitat and land improvements.

 

[cuerro viejo]

In Montana Turner bought several ranches. And in doing so has artificially driven land prices up. We'll him and all the out of state money. This has been very hard on the agriculture community as the next generation has lost a place to buy or rent.

From a big picture/long game view I see no upside to LO tags.

How did he drive up land prices?

I’m a ranch/farm owner and been increasing acreage over past 4 decades. There is nothing that Turner has done to increase land prices. Normal eve and flow.

Turners actually pretty good at conservation easements, vs subdividing. Now he may of taken
Land out of the grazing lease market but I thought people hated cattle out west….

 

[KHNC]

Unit wide LO tags should be taken away!!! Im ok with Ranch Only tags. Unit wide is nothing more than a way for high roller ranch owners to make a shit load of money off them, and to further prevent people from being able to use them in the draw. ALL unit wide tags should be added to the regular draw.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Haha yeah I get that sentiment. Don't have the money yet but in 10 year it's something I would consider. But still, it feels dirty. The wildlife is supposed to be owned by the people of the state and held in trust by the state for the people. And the resource allocated democratically. This is just the opposite of that.

The wildlife is owned by the state. However, having the right to protect your private property from a state interests is paramount in private property rights.

It sucks. But, I’ll take private property rights over state interests any day. And, if you are eligible to receive tags as LO yo sell, good for you. That’s the way it should be.

There isn’t a lot going on in rural New Mexico. It’s nice to see a state trying to help landowners maximize their investments. Versus just swoop in and stomp all over them.

 

[Jimbee]

The wildlife is owned by the state. However, having the right to protect your private property from a state interests is paramount in private property rights.

It sucks. But, I’ll take private property rights over state interests any day. And, if you are eligible to receive tags as LO yo sell, good for you. That’s the way it should be.

There isn’t a lot going on in rural New Mexico. It’s nice to see a state trying to help landowners maximize their investments. Versus just swoop in and stomp all over them.

What if you substituted elk with water in this discussion. Would you still feel the same?

 

[cuerro viejo]

The whole concept of the north American model is against this. Just bc you own the land doesn't mean you own the animals. There is no "the kings deer".

The whole concept of the North American model is exactly LO tags, and private land conservation.

numerous species wouldn’t exist with out LO conservation. Tule elk and Turkeys are a perfect example.

Minute LO incentive is lost more wildlife will be lost to competition of domestic grazing etc.

if I cant make a living on my ranch, then I have to turn it into a subdivision. only choice I have.

 

[Legend]

How did he drive up land prices?

I’m a ranch/farm owner and been increasing acreage over past 4 decades. There is nothing that Turner has done to increase land prices. Normal eve and flow.

Turners actually pretty good at conservation easements, vs subdividing. Now he may of taken
Land out of the grazing lease market but I thought people hated cattle out west….

Simple. People used to have to make a living off ranches. As you know that means you can't pay more per acre than the land can produce. Whether that be through agriculture or ranching. But those days are gone. Now people like Turner lock up land and remove it from the available pool for traditional uses.

The positive side is the land may not get subdivided into 20 acre pieces.

And to bring it back to the topic. Allowing landowners to profit off wildlife has been done in other countries. The end result is no more hunting......unless you can afford the private club. Thats just a fact and not worth discussing.

We should learn from the past and what others have tried. If you want to see your grandkids hunt you should really embrace the North American model of wildlife conservation.

 

[Legend]

The whole concept of the North American model is exactly LO tags, and private land conservation.

numerous species wouldn’t exist with out LO conservation. Tule elk is a perfect example.

Minute LO incentive is lost more wildlife will be lost to competition of domestic grazing etc.

if I can make a living on my ranch, is the day I turn it into a subdivision. only choice I have.

No it’s the opposite, The North American conservation model doesnt exist when there is no incentive for wildlife to co-exist with agriculture.

with out private land conservation lots of species wouldn’t exist. Wild Turkeys and Tule Elk are perfect examples.

Majority of winter habitat is Private

I encourage different opinions and an open discussion.

But I feel obligated to point out that the North American Model for wildlife conservation is more than random opinions and is an actual document created from lessons in history to protect the future of hunting.

Here are the 7 principles and I would encourage others to look into the whole thing. Education never hurts even if you don't agree.

As you will learn the NAMWC is violated in two forms in NM: LO tags and creating a market for wildlife. You will look back in 50 years and agree....unless your wealthy.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

There should be zero land owner tags for game that’s owned and managed by the state funded by and for the public. It’s a public resource. You want landowner tags then you better be pro public accessing your land to hunt it for free. I own land with game and don’t feel entitled to extra tags. NM is the worst example of the North American wildlife conservation model. That podcast is full of all the information and data one needs to see the reasons why.

 

[roadrunner]

Unit wide LO tags should be taken away!!! Im ok with Ranch Only tags. Unit wide is nothing more than a way for high roller ranch owners to make a shit load of money off them, and to further prevent people from being able to use them in the draw. ALL unit wide tags should be added to the regular draw.

No. UW EPLUS opens a lot of acreage to public land tag holders that would otherwise be inaccessible, as explained already in other posts.

Yes. UW EPLUS tags should be added to the draw, but kept as UW EPLUS tags with all the same stipulations currently in place.

 

[cuerro viejo]

I encourage different opinions and an open discussion.

But I feel obligated to point out that the North American Model for wildlife conservation is more than random opinions and is an actual document created from lessons in history to protect the future of hunting.

Here are the 7 principles and I would encourage others to look into the whole thing. Education never hurts even if you don't agree.

As you will learn the NAMWC is violated in two forms in NM: LO tags and creating a market for wildlife. You will look back in 50 years and agree....unless you’re wealthy.

killed for Legitimate purpose is Domestic conflict. Let’s go back to Depredation on demand, of early 1900’s.

Y’all think you can ignore agriculture conflict, you can’t.

Economic loss will always be the deciding factor in whether wildlife exists.

 

[MattB]

Unit wide LO tags should be taken away!!! Im ok with Ranch Only tags. Unit wide is nothing more than a way for high roller ranch owners to make a shit load of money off them, and to further prevent people from being able to use them in the draw. ALL unit wide tags should be added to the regular draw.

Or perhaps they can be a way for people whose property may only have elk out of season (wintering ground) or at night (crops but no bedding cover) to be compensated for the costs they incur? An alternative to offering landowners in those situations unit wide tags is that they go out at night with spotlights and kill the elk so no one can hunt them - and that has happened.

 

[OKHunter84]

The whole concept of the north American model is against this. Just bc you own the land doesn't mean you own the animals. There is no "the kings deer".

Never said they own the animal. If the animals are on private land, it doesn't matter if they belong to the public, the public would only have access through the land owners.

 

[4BarN]

This is going to open another can of worms so sorry in advance. All of the resident hunters concerned about these LO permits and how it’s reducing your ability to get a tag. I feel the same way about how resident hunters get preference on federal land versus us non-residents. I know this battle has already been fought and the state owns the animals, but I still disagree. I can do everything on national forest and BLM that a resident can….except hunt while I’m paying taxes just like everyone else.


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[diamond10x]

Do away with UW LO tags, move those tags over to the general pool.

Property w/ LO tags make similar to the UW tags in where public can access the property whether that's for a small fee or tax incentive.

I have mixed emotions on outfitters being able to purchase LO tags. Not just NM but all states in general. In some states for some species there are outfitters who basically have a monopoly on the permits/tags which is complete BS, but then again its the landowners permit and they are entitled to sell to whomever they choose to do so.