NM landowner tags under fire

[louisianahunter]

This is going to open another can of worms so sorry in advance. All of the resident hunters concerned about these LO permits and how it’s reducing your ability to get a tag. I feel the same way about how resident hunters get preference on federal land versus us non-residents. I know this battle has already been fought and the state owns the animals, but I still disagree. I can do everything on national forest and BLM that a resident can….except hunt while I’m paying taxes just like everyone else.


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Sorry if I'm misreading but are you advocating for the federal government to regulate tag draws for federal lands?? And then the state has separate tags for non federal land? I can't see how that would go well.


As a non res to all western states I 100% accept that as a NR I get way worse odds to draw. I'm grateful for any % they throw my way.

 

[svivian]

What if you substituted elk with water in this discussion. Would you still feel the same?

You are aware many areas of the west, property owners have water rights?

 

[OKHunter84]

If folks should be mad about anything NM is doing it's the 84/10/6 tag allocation split. 10% for outfitters that go back into the 84% resident pool if not used and only 6% for NR is ridiculous.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

killed for Legitimate purpose is Domestic conflict. Let’s go back to Depredation on demand, of early 1900’s.

Y’all think you can ignore agriculture conflict, you can’t.

Economic loss will always be the deciding factor in whether wildlife exists.

Rancher: there’s elk getting into my haystack

Public hunter: ok let us come in with regulations and kill those elk and push them onto public.

Ranch: I don’t want people on my land and like to sell trophy bull tags (that do absolutely nothing to keep the herd off the land) for $20K

Public hunter: You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

I’ve hunted a lot of private ranches that allow public access and while it’s not perfect it works. Theres just too few of the old school ranchers and farmers left. Lots of these land owners now are mega millionaires who are just greedy.

 

[Jethro]

This is going to open another can of worms so sorry in advance. All of the resident hunters concerned about these LO permits and how it’s reducing your ability to get a tag. I feel the same way about how resident hunters get preference on federal land versus us non-residents. I know this battle has already been fought and the state owns the animals, but I still disagree. I can do everything on national forest and BLM that a resident can….except hunt while I’m paying taxes just like everyone else.


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That's not "another can of worms". The can has been opened so times that the worms are now dead and dry rotted.

 

[Jethro]

I like the system and I can't afford a LO tag. When I've drawn I've spent a lot of time hunting private land that was open from Eplus.

 

[Ten Bears]

Things we should care about

Mandatory Harvest Reporting
Real Predator Management
Controlling our Fish and Game agencies with people that don’t hate hunting
Ending all filming for profit/hunting on Public Land
Easily accessible transparent views into lobbyist activities/donations regarding reintroductions, wildlife decisions, etc.
Easily defined language addressing corner crossing
The end of land-locking public land
Codifying hunting and fishing into state and federal level constitutions

Things we have wasted too much time on here discussing

NM Eplus system. It ain’t perfect but it’s not even worth a mention in the grand scheme of things.

 

[yfarm]

The whole concept of the North American model is exactly LO tags, and private land conservation.

numerous species wouldn’t exist with out LO conservation. Tule elk and Turkeys are a perfect example.

Minute LO incentive is lost more wildlife will be lost to competition of domestic grazing etc.

if I cant make a living on my ranch, then I have to turn it into a subdivision. only choice I have.

Exactly, remove economic viability from ag land and watch what happens. Will gladly take a wealthy landowner that underwrites the cost of maintaining the land over what is occurring in the hill country of Texas with the carving up of the 1-5k acre ranches into ranchettes of 10-20 acres with corresponding declines in wildlife. Removing lo tags does nothing to improve access to private land, may make it worse. I grew up in a state where leased hunting land was nonexistent which is now changing. Lived in another state where leased land in the best counties for whitetail is common and now live in Texas where leased land is the normal. Of all three states wildlife is cared for best in Texas as the economic benefit is realized from the wildlife by the landowner. My general hunting license allows me to harvest 5 deer/ year, depending on the county includes 2-3 bucks. Most private leases limit you to one quality buck and one cull buck to maintain deer quality. We feed throughout the year, last year was 8000 lbs of feed. This benefits all wildlife, deer,turkey,hogs as well as predators. Larger properties often use wildlife biologists to monitor their wildlife, never have seen this done by property owners in the Midwest. Supplemental feeding is not required in the midwest as the farm crops provide that, our depredation losses on the family farm in Iowa typically are around 20 acres of corn ground that produces in excess of 200bu/ acre, do the math. We and adjacent landowners in essence are maintaining the local deer herd with no economic benefit.

 

[SDHNTR]

Things we should care about

Mandatory Harvest Reporting
Real Predator Management
Controlling our Fish and Game agencies with people that don’t hate hunting
Ending all filming for profit/hunting on Public Land
Easily accessible transparent views into lobbyist activities/donations regarding reintroductions, wildlife decisions, etc.
Easily defined language addressing corner crossing
The end of land-locking public land
Codifying hunting and fishing into state and federal level constitutions

Things we have wasted too much time on here discussing

NM Eplus system. It ain’t perfect but it’s not even worth a mention in the grand scheme of things.

I especially like the banning of filming on public lands! Anything that limits the influence of influencers, I’m all for!

 

[Legend]

killed for Legitimate purpose is Domestic conflict. Let’s go back to Depredation on demand, of early 1900’s.

Y’all think you can ignore agriculture conflict, you can’t.

Economic loss will always be the deciding factor in whether wildlife exists.

Not sure I follow your thought in the first paragraph.

I too am a ranch owner and agree with you that economics should be included in the discussion. And while hardship can happen from Elk and Deer it is often associated with a landowner who chooses the issue in part. The number of ranchers that aren't willing to protect a haystack is silly. The ranches that complain about wildlife overgrazing their pastures and hay fields but don't allow hunting ( because they want big bulls)....well that too is silly.

The number of ranches that have a depredation issue, who have engaged the local community, and neighbors, and the wildlife agency with an open mind.......well that is pretty close to Zero. Unless they have a big money neighbor who wants big bulls.

I have enjoyed the discussion. Likely we will have to agree to disagree. But please do ponder the long term ramifications of associating money to hunt opportunity. Our grandkids deserve at least a little pondering of what they might have for opportunity.

 

[KHNC]

Or perhaps they can be a way for people whose property may only have elk out of season (wintering ground) or at night (crops but no bedding cover) to be compensated for the costs they incur? An alternative to offering landowners in those situations unit wide tags is that they go out at night with spotlights and kill the elk so no one can hunt them - and that has happened.

Ranch only tags take care of that issue. UW tags are mostly only used for greed purposes by the LO's.

 

[KHNC]

No. UW EPLUS opens a lot of acreage to public land tag holders that would otherwise be inaccessible, as explained already in other posts.

Yes. UW EPLUS tags should be added to the draw, but kept as UW EPLUS tags with all the same stipulations currently in place.

I can agree to this as well.

 

[BBob]

@BBob does AZ have anything like the Jennings Law that NM has?
NM law prevents direct payments for property damage.

I honestly don't know but I would suspect that is the case. If I recall corectly the cattleman's assoc wanted a landowner tag system like NM.

Two comments:

1) Arizona has always managed with the goal of providing hunting opportunities for residents first, not Non-Res or commercial interests.
2) New Mexico has long prioritized commercial gain over draw tag opportunities for the public be it res or non-res. That means $$$ for landowners and guides first leaning towards the outfitters interests first.

 

[RockAndSage]

The whole concept of the north American model is against this. Just bc you own the land doesn't mean you own the animals. There is no "the kings deer".

The AMERICAN model means neither the public nor the government are allowed to take or damage your private property without fair, legal, adjudicated compensation. Landowner tags are just that - compensation for public property (animals) damaging your property.

Do you guys not understand that this jealous, victim mentality you're throwing at landowners is exactly what is at the root of a marxist, communist mentality?

Should those landowners not get compensated if an armored battalion decides to hold maneuvers on their alfalfa fields? How is that different from unregulated game herds eating it, and damaging the infrastructure?

Your tune would change damn quick if it was your property some rando was complaining about not getting to hunt on.

Seriously - for those of you complaining, who do you think you are, that you've got the right to hunt on someone else's home, or that they shouldn't be compensated for crop damage caused by government regulation?

 

[RockAndSage]

Ranch only tags take care of that issue. UW tags are mostly only used for greed purposes by the LO's.

They don't, actually. At least not with mule deer (and antelope), and especially not with smaller holdings of less than 1500 acres. Those deer can and do travel 5 miles or more every night to get down into someone's fields.

They bed down during the day in surrounding public lands, especially up in the agriculturally worthless hills above the fertile flats the ranches and farms were founded on.

Limiting those hunts to the ranches themselves definitely does limit the financial value of the tags, but it genuinely does not address the public land herds visiting those fields at night. Not unless you want to treat those herds and tags like vermin, predators, and varmints, and allow night hunting.

That's the reality of the Great Basin/Intermountain West, from Utah to Eastern California, southern Idaho down to the Mexican border.

 

[MattB]

Ranch only tags take care of that issue. UW tags are mostly only used for greed purposes by the LO's.

They absolutely do not, which was exactly the point of my post. Having a ranch-only tag doesn’t allow for hunting out of season or after legal shooting light.

 

[displacedtexan]

The AMERICAN model means neither the public nor the government are allowed to take or damage your private property without fair, legal, adjudicated compensation. Landowner tags are just that - compensation for public property (animals) damaging your property.

Do you guys not understand that this jealous, victim mentality you're throwing at landowners is exactly what is at the root of a marxist, communist mentality?

Should those landowners not get compensated if an armored battalion decides to hold maneuvers on their alfalfa fields? How is that different from unregulated game herds eating it, and damaging the infrastructure?

Your tune would change damn quick if it was your property some rando was complaining about not getting to hunt on.

Seriously - for those of you complaining, who do you think you are, that you've got the right to hunt on someone else's home, or that they shouldn't be compensated for crop damage caused by government regulation?

Is the battalion native to where they have chosen to own land?

 

[RS_Non-Res]

I'm not sure that I want "democracy" "legitimate purpose" and "international resource" to run the show. It sounds like a recipe for tree huggers from Gaza putting an end to hunting.

+1 to property rights. Without property rights, there is no need for 2A, or 4A or ...

 

[Fredcohunter]

Things we should care about

Mandatory Harvest Reporting
Real Predator Management
Controlling our Fish and Game agencies with people that don’t hate hunting
Ending all filming for profit/hunting on Public Land
Easily accessible transparent views into lobbyist activities/donations regarding reintroductions, wildlife decisions, etc.
Easily defined language addressing corner crossing
The end of land-locking public land
Codifying hunting and fishing into state and federal level constitutions

Things we have wasted too much time on here discussing

NM Eplus system. It ain’t perfect but it’s not even worth a mention in the grand scheme of things.

This.

 

[roadrunner]

Things we should care about

Mandatory Harvest Reporting
Real Predator Management
Controlling our Fish and Game agencies with people that don’t hate hunting
Ending all filming for profit/hunting on Public Land
Easily accessible transparent views into lobbyist activities/donations regarding reintroductions, wildlife decisions, etc.
Easily defined language addressing corner crossing
The end of land-locking public land
Codifying hunting and fishing into state and federal level constitutions

Things we have wasted too much time on here discussing

NM Eplus system. It ain’t perfect but it’s not even worth a mention in the grand scheme of things.

For a thread about NM's EPLUS, the thing to care about is the system itself...

EPLUS opens up public that is privately land-locked. Pretty relevant really.

Corner crossing - not an issue about NM'S EPLUS program.

NM screwed the pooch on real predator management with the "ban" of trapping on public lands.

Good luck putting hunting and fishing rights into NM's state constitution. The state legislature is more worried about gender dysphoria.

The game commission needs to be addressed. The outfitter rule needs to be abolished with prejudice.