Newly lost faith in health care

[Pharmseller]

USMLE (United States Medical Licensing Exams) includes biochemistry, nutrition, etc among numerous other related required topics. I can only speak to what a US MD board certified physician goes through for training. Can you say the same? Judging by your user name, I’d guess a pharma rep or pharmacist? To say an MD curriculum was unique or unusual because it included nutrition is false. It is required for all US board certified docs. To what extent a medical student retains or brings into their practice as an attending is highly variable. He’s not saying every MD is an expert in nutrition, which nobody is claiming on this thread.

I cannot, that is why I’m not making claims.

I am, however, asking others from whence they get the information to make their claims.





P

 

[omicron1792]

I cannot, that is why I’m not making claims.

I am, however, asking others from whence they get the information to make their claims.





P

So…..

There is more information pertaining to medicine than one human can know. Way more. That is why thy have specialties and sub specialties. Even then, most sub specialties now have more info than one human brain can keep up with.

All that said, I had a whole class in medical school devoted to nutrition. It is standard teaching for all medical schools to have a class on nutrition.

I didn’t have a whole class devoted to diabetes. Or cancer. Or really anything specific like I did nutrition.

So there is your evidence.

 

[Idaboy]

In post #134 you ask

“Do have a resource you could reference to that statement?”


So I’m asking the same question of you. When you say

“Pretty sure "most" get a fair amount of nutrition, biochemistry of metabolism, and lifestyle modification during medical education....and board exams for that matter.”

From where do you get this information?





P

Hey man, again not picking fights here. Nutrition is super, super important, and obviously "the system", providers and allied health field could improve.

You can't not understand/learn physiology amd metabolism, and not learn the input (nutrition), and so across the fields (doc, PA, nurse, pharmacist) nutrition is going to be covered: diabetes-special diet, heart disease-special diet, kidney disease-special diet, heck the even used to put kids on ketogenic diet for seizures. Look at pediatric, neonate it's all about the weight if they are gonna get to go home, all the growth charts they focus on the first few years we bring our kids in for check ups...etc. You can't study and manage these conditions without covering the input/diet.
Unfortunately much of what is learned is medicine is because of when things are wrong. So the sick model is just how they learn stuff from the get go.
But there are also diet links to various cancer, that while some aspects are debated/unknown yet, clearly have some signal, but preventative nutrition is studied in cancer prevention and all doctors have to learn about the basic cancers they screen for (beast, colon, prostate). Heck even my physicical therapist talked about a "non inflammatory diet". So nutrition is covered across the allied health fields
I have learned in life to avoid "all or none" statements, so I am not to say "all doctors" get nutritional education, but it's pretty evident to study just these basic diseases (HTN, diabetes, cancer) that intake and nutrition would be studied, so that is why I am comfortable saying "most" get nutrition education....is it the right education, is it emphasizes enough, or do they apply it is a completely different discussion.
-MTwop pretty much seems to cover the other details of that it's covered.

Is nutrition covered like it should be? It probably could be improved. Then different doctors do different things so I wouldnt expect my hand surgeon to educate me on diet, nor recall the damn Krebs cycle. So yeah doctors know about Scurvy and Ricketts, but who sees that anymore?! They say the half life of medical knowledge is like 7 yrs, so 10 yrs out of training,half of what they learned is maybe not obsolete, but has changed. To Marble point, it's clear that nutrition whether it's in the doctor office or the grocery store, it not getting through to many of us in the USA

Marble, really sorry to hear your story, and you make really good points. People do have to be adocates and it seems health care has gotten so fragmented. We can all learn when guys like yourself speak up and share your experience. Hope you are on the mends, in remission, and doing well

Good stuff on this thread guys.

 

[Pharmseller]

I’m not picking fights either. I also agree that diet and exercise are crucial to good health.

In my line of work if I make a claim I am required to have a valid proof source to support that claim.

That’s all I’m saying.




P

 

[klyt56]

Disappointingly that anyone has no faith in Doctors.

 

[Hunt eat repeat]

You should give Joe Rogans podcast with Gary Brecka a listen.

 

[Speaks]

I’m not picking fights either. I also agree that diet and exercise are crucial to good health.

In my line of work if I make a claim I am required to have a valid proof source to support that claim.

That’s all I’m saying.




P

This is chatgpts answer to “do medical degrees require a class in nutrition”

It seems requirements are minimal.




In the U.S., medical degrees (MD or DO) do not universally require a dedicated class in nutrition, although some programs include it as part of broader coursework.








Here’s how it typically breaks down:

• Most U.S. med schools offer limited instruction in nutrition — often folded into courses like physiology, biochemistry, or public health.
• A 2019 survey found that only ~25% of med schools required a dedicated nutrition course, and on average, students received less than 20 hours of nutrition education over four years.
• The National Academy of Sciences recommends 25–30 hours, but few schools meet this.
• No accreditation requirement mandates a standalone nutrition course for medical licensure or graduation.

In contrast:

• Registered Dietitians (RDs) and nutritionists take extensive coursework (biochemistry, food science, clinical nutrition).
• Some MDs pursue additional training in nutrition during residencies, fellowships, or CME (especially in fields like endocrinology or lifestyle medicine).

So while doctors can learn a lot about nutrition, they often don’t — unless they seek it out intentionally. Want a list of schools that do emphasize nutrition training?

 

[Speaks]

I followed up with “how about fitness”

Medical degrees (MD or DO) in the U.S. do not require formal coursework in fitness, exercise physiology, or physical training — just like with nutrition, it’s typically underrepresented in the standard curriculum.








Here’s what is (and isn’t) covered:











What’s typically included:

• Exercise may be briefly discussed in:
  • Preventive medicine
  • Cardiovascular health modules
  • Chronic disease management (e.g., diabetes, obesity)
• 
  
• It’s usually conceptual (e.g., “exercise lowers blood pressure”) rather than practical (e.g., how to prescribe exercise or assess fitness levels).

What’s usually not included:

• No training in exercise programming, resistance training, VO₂ max, or movement screening
• No hands-on modules on fitness assessment, injury prevention, or training adaptations

Exceptions:

• Some schools or tracks (especially those focused on lifestyle medicine, sports medicine, or preventive care) may offer electives or rotations in exercise science.
• Dual degree MD/MPH programs might include more on physical activity in population health.
• Physicians can pursue certifications or additional training later (e.g., ACSM Certified Physician, Lifestyle Medicine Board Certification).

Bottom line:








Unless a med student actively seeks out electives, mentorships, or self-study, their knowledge of fitness is usually minimal and mostly theoretical — despite its huge role in long-term health.





Want examples of programs that do emphasize fitness or lifestyle medicine?

 

[Mike 338]

You're wise not to blindly swallow some pill pushing phd who see's you for 3 minutes, regurgitates the latest data and rushes into the next room. I do like them for stitches, setting a broken bone and removing the occasional bullet.

I remember reading, when Bruce Willis was going downhill fast with dementia, a doctor said he'd bet a bundle that Willis was on a low fat diet and statins. Doctors, for the most part can't tell you anything more than what the latest data is and unless you've been in a vacuum the last few years, that should scare you.

 

[Grumman]

OP I understand your frustration. My wife is a medical provider, has her personal trainer certs, and extensively researches holistic options. She is pretty sharp on the human body and doesn’t suffer fools or laziness. She has patients get pissed at her when she gives medical advice like this thread to eat better and exercise before she writes an unnecessary script. A lot of folks just want a pill and get pissed if they don’t walk out of there with some new prescription.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MThuntrrr]

OP I understand your frustration. My wife is a medical provider, has her personal trainer certs, and extensively researches holistic options. She is pretty sharp on the human body and doesn’t suffer fools or laziness. She has patients get pissed at her when she gives medical advice like this thread to eat better and exercise before she writes an unnecessary script. A lot of folks just want a pill and get pissed if they don’t walk out of there with some new prescription.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Patients want the easy button and the vast majority have little if any interest in lifestyle changes. Most take next to zero accountability for their health. It’s no secret for many years that sugar, highly processed foods, fried foods, alcohol, smoking, lack of exercise etc are not healthy. Yet this accounts for the majority of chronic disease. It’s incredibly simple yet extremely challenging for Americans to follow. The same can be said for finances in this country. Discipline is almost nonexistent

 

[mt terry d]

Like everything in government ( yes, the medical industry is government ) it
plays to the lowest common denominator.

Don't be the lowest common denominator.

 

[yfarm]

Here is something else to think about, the length of a medical education pre residency is 4 years, in 1940, 1950 ,1970 and today. Consider the volume of information all students are required to master in that time compared with their predecessors. Genetics for example, think about what was known in 1950 vs today, gene therapy wasnt even on the horizon until perhaps 15 years ago. Post graduate education (residency) lasted one to 5 years and has gradually increased with most specialists now doing additional fellowships so it is not usual for a student to look at 6-8 yrs of training after medical school. Primary care is still at 3.
You want advanced nutrition information or exercise physiology you are going to have to seek those people out and most will be affiliated with large medical centers or universities. Before accepting recommendations in these areas ask about the individuals training and qualifications and review those for the robustness of the training. Once you get outside of a hospital environment with the level of regulatory control insurance and government exert its a wild west of claims with little supporting documentation. Pure office based practice has virtually no regulatory oversight until a disaster happens. Buyer beware.

 

[Idaboy]

Here is something else to think about, the length of a medical education pre residency is 4 years, in 1940, 1950 ,1970 and today. Consider the volume of information all students are required to master in that time compared with their predecessors. Genetics is a course for example, think about what was known in 1950 vs today, gene therapy wasnt even on the horizon until perhaps 15 years ago. Post graduate education (residency) lasted one to 5 years and has gradually increased with most specialists now doing additional fellowships so it is not usual for a student to look at 6-8 yrs of training after medical school. Primary care is still at 3.
You want advanced nutrition information or exercise physiology you are going to have to seek those people out and most will be affiliated with large medical centers or universities. Before accepting recommendations in these areas ask about the individuals training and qualifications and review those for the robustness of the training. Once you get outside of a hospital environment with the level of regulatory control insurance and government exert its a wild west of claims with little supporting documentation. Pure office based practice has virtually no regulatory oversight until a disaster happens. Buyer beware.

Well said

 

[Idaboy]

I’m not picking fights either. I also agree that diet and exercise are crucial to good health.

In my line of work if I make a claim I am required to have a valid proof source to support that claim.

That’s all I’m saying.




P

All good man.... I don't know what else to tell you

 

[mostlybirch]

You should give Joe Rogans podcast with Gary Brecka a listen.

I'm not a doctor so I can't offhand say anything about what he recommends, but when someone has this many products to push I would take it with a grain of salt. I know a guy I grew up with who claims to be a Holistic Medicine physician, he is not any kind of doctor, and this is exactly what his website looks like. Just a thought.

 

[Helislacker]

I just had my yearly physical and my results have me very frustrated. My lipid panel results showed LDL were “high”. No discussion was had about diet or exercise, nothing about my lifestyle or family history, just an immediate prescription for a statin.

-33yo, generally healthy (no major issues, some family history, some chronic pain etc)
-5’9” 185 lbs, <20%body fat
-moderately active throughout the winter and more into the summer and fall.

Not sure if this is a rant or asking opinions at this point. But I would like to find a doctor that is willing to talk through things, not just sign Rx and send me on my way

Look into the lean mass hyper responder hypothesis. It’s very interesting.

 

[Speaks]

I'm not a doctor so I can't offhand say anything about what he recommends, but when someone has this many products to push I would take it with a grain of salt. I know a guy I grew up with who claims to be a Holistic Medicine physician, he is not any kind of doctor, and this is exactly what his website looks like. Just a thought.
View attachment 870747

Yea Gary has some interesting ideas but I take it with a BIG grain of salt. He is a self described "Bio-hacker" which in my experience crosses into some weird territories. I think there are some things he gets right, but also that we can live totally healthy lives without $100k red light therapy beds, $10k hydrogen baths, and taking 30 different pills a day.

 

[ODB]

Patients want the easy button and the vast majority have little if any interest in lifestyle changes. Most take next to zero accountability for their health. It’s no secret for many years that sugar, highly processed foods, fried foods, alcohol, smoking, lack of exercise etc are not healthy. Yet this accounts for the majority of chronic disease. It’s incredibly simple yet extremely challenging for Americans to follow. The same can be said for finances in this country. Discipline is almost nonexistent

This is the ugly truth. And I will also say the anxiety among the medical community in a very litigious society plays no small part. Go to a doc and get bad numbers and be told “lose weight, eat healthy, exercise, etc” then the guy drops dead and the lawyers line up to toss a malpractice suit on your lap because you didn’t prescribe a magic pill.

Also, our modern society has convinced people (largely through feminine perspectives) that saying someone is fat/out of shape/ unhealthy due to obesity is “shaming” and “mean.” And to suggest that something be done about one’s health is sexist, racist (yes, it’s said), classist, etc. so we put very overweight people on magazine covers with the headline “this is healthy!”

The medical care is partially a response to the pressure of our modern society. To ignore that is to ignore how the world works.

 

[Pony Soldier]

I have wondered over time about how ethnicity may affect nutritional aspects of health. Northern european diets versus southern european diets. Controls over what will grow where, refidgeration or lack of. Mtn climates vs coastal climates.

I have to believe that bodies have adapted to food opportunities given the location over generations. Such as more of a meat diet in the northern climates vs veg and fish diets along coasts.

With migration now this may have an effect on some populations. Just a thought !