New Rules go to Idaho Fish and Game Commission for approval, meeting Nov 19-20

Hard pass. Frankly I have better things to do with my time than engage in a theoretical situation that isn't my profession. You wouldn't be convinced even if Matlock himself made a case to my point. You're too wrapped up in our own opinion (imho) that the rules aren't enforceable for me waste a bunch of time trying to convince you otherwise. I don't need to do so. The courts and IDFG enforcement personnel will answer that "question".

Seems a lot easier to wait and see how things play out. If you watch the entirety of the Commission meetings, I think you'll see your concerns addressed at about the 1:18 mark of the meeting. The Commission says REPEATEDLY the need to re-visit the topic to ensure the rules are enforceable and working.

If you're right (and I'm wrong), feel free to publicly rub my nose in it. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about a topic...though I'm pretty sure I'm not on this one. At the very least, the IDFG staff and Commission seem to agree with me on this one.

Dave
You seem inclined to let this play out, and let "enforcement" answer for the issue. I will again point to the issue of the Motorized Hunting Rule (MHR). On point, I had a conversation with an IDFG enforcement officer last year where we discussed this issue. I won't share a name, as it was off the record, but he seemed to suggest that his opinion was not unique and it was not a secret... that he did not like the MHR, and would not write tickets for violations of the MHR because the prosecutors and judges always dismissed them if the defendant gave even the slightest resistance... because of the many loopholes and general unenforceability of the MHR as its written. Yet, inspite of this officer's (and others) experience, the MHR has been on the books... unchanged... for how many years now? So, I'd ask the obvious question... even if the current proposed rules are deemed ineffective, how long (if ever) do you think it will take for the new rules to be fixed? If IDFG won't fix the MHR, why would they fix this rule? Why not just do it right the first time?
 
Pretty easy to enforce the rules around thermals if they set acceptable dates for use rather than trying to define intention -( to scout, recover, etc ). Prohibit thermal use during any open ungulate season. Then possession of the device in the field is illegal and easily enforceable.
 
Pretty easy to enforce the rules around thermals if they set acceptable dates for use rather than trying to define intention -( to scout, recover, etc ). Prohibit thermal use during any open ungulate season. Then possession of the device in the field is illegal and easily enforceable.
This ^^^ exactly!
 
As a young person living in Idaho, this is very concerning to me. I spend time in the field and see the utter lack of enforcement of hunting laws as is and seeing further steps away from quality legislation is sad. I do not know why the legislation would be written in this way, but this law is a joke if you know a good lawyer. Courts enforce the law, not Fish and Game. The term knee-jerk legislation comes to mind... The proposed regulation book is published on their website - they did not clean it up. https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/13-0108-2401-proposed-rule-1025.pdf

It is hard to understand why this legislation would be written in such an oblivious manner to the nature of humans and rules. Maybe one of you has a clue. Maybe the book is intended to be amended during the voting process? Otherwise it leaves a door big enough for anyone with a thermal and a wolf tag to walk right by a violation.
 
As a young person living in Idaho, this is very concerning to me. I spend time in the field and see the utter lack of enforcement of hunting laws as is and seeing further steps away from quality legislation is sad. I do not know why the legislation would be written in this way, but this law is a joke if you know a good lawyer. Courts enforce the law, not Fish and Game. The term knee-jerk legislation comes to mind... The proposed regulation book is published on their website - they did not clean it up. https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/13-0108-2401-proposed-rule-1025.pdf

It is hard to understand why this legislation would be written in such an oblivious manner to the nature of humans and rules. Maybe one of you has a clue. Maybe the book is intended to be amended during the voting process? Otherwise it leaves a door big enough for anyone with a thermal and a wolf tag to walk right by a violation.
I agree it is very concerning.
I'd encourage you to share your sentiment with the powers that be. Earlier in the thread I include a list of email addresses you can reach out to. Not everyone will respond, but some will.
 
Pretty easy to enforce the rules around thermals if they set acceptable dates for use rather than trying to define intention -( to scout, recover, etc ). Prohibit thermal use during any open ungulate season. Then possession of the device in the field is illegal and easily enforceable.
This was a thought I had. Couldn’t they also make it illegal to possess or be part of a party possessing both a valid big game ungulate tag and a thermal or night vision device? This would be even less restrictive on predator hunters. Problem would be predator hunters “accidentally” finding elk and telling their buddy about it”
 
We’ve spoke/argued about this before. We’ll agree to disagree. I fully support their attempt to limit some of the technology advantages.

In particular, I support eliminating thermal devices and cell cameras. Thermal devices simply tip the scales too far away from “fair chase” imho and in my personal experience using them.

While you may believe their proposals to be “unenforceable”….IDFG clearly does not. Since they are the ones scratching the tickets, I’m comfortable with their ability to do so.

I’ll be sending my support in for their proposals.

Dave
Agree 💯
 
Opportunity to review and comment on the IDFG Strategic Plan

 
Unpopular opinion:
Thermal regulation is a SIMPLE decision.

Thermal is NOT fair chase, therefore thermal should not be legal to hunt big game.

The above poster video complaints about comment periods and idfg lack of inclusion of public opinion does not matter to me on the subject! I am shocked and disappointed the commission is even considering holding public opinion as a deciding factor for legality of a technology that is obviously not fair chase.

Just because people want the easy button does not mean it is the right thing to do or that it is good for the future of hunting.
 
I'm not sure if a link to an Instagram post will work here... but this guy makes some points regarding the public comment process and the most recent IDFG Commission meeting.

That guy is obnoxious. Hunter input started with the HAT working groups months ago. I have received dozens of notifications about proposed rule changes by email, through social, news outlets, etc. If someone didn’t know about the proposed rule changes they are really out to lunch.

And to the main point of this guys argument- strictly following hunter input is NOT the way to manage wildlife. If you let every hunter vote on every game management policy then all policies would just be self serving to the general public who are not educated in game management principles and have a very skewed perspective . Your average Fudd thinks they’re smarter than the wildlife biologists and there’s some conspiracy by the F&G to defraud the hunting community and steal our money. An uneducated vote is worse than no vote at all IMO. A typical hunter votes for their own benefit, not the benefit of the herds and hunters as a whole.
 
Unpopular opinion:
Thermal regulation is a SIMPLE decision.

Thermal is NOT fair chase, therefore thermal should not be legal to hunt big game.

The above poster video complaints about comment periods and idfg lack of inclusion of public opinion does not matter to me on the subject! I am shocked and disappointed the commission is even considering holding public opinion as a deciding factor for legality of a technology that is obviously not fair chase.

Just because people want the easy button does not mean it is the right thing to do or that it is good for the future of hunting.
It's a good topic for debate. What is or is not fair chase or ethical vs unethical? Which advantage or niche that one hunter can cultivate over another should be regulated or banned? It kind of comes down to a matter of perspective.

A hunter who exclusively sits in a Tree Stand with his bow during whitetail season might be more likely to say that using a scoped rifle to hunt big game is not fair chase.

A hunter who doesnt own an ATV or a dirt bike, or otherwise prefers to hike, would be more likely to say that using motor vehicles for hunting is not fair chase.

A hunter who only hunts deer because they can use it to feed their family might be more likely to say that hunting predators for sport is unethical.

A hunter who exclusively hunts with a long bow inside of 30 yards might be more likely to say that using modern compound bows out to 80+ yards is not fair chase.

A hunter who owns or has access to a lot of private land might be more likely to approve of more restrictive trespassing laws.

A hunter who has deep pockets might be more likely to support the sale of public lands... because he will just buy them to use for his own benefit.

A hunter who exclusively hunts bears over bait might be more likely to say that hunters chasing bears with hounds is less ethical.

A hunter with a disability might be more likely to approve of rules that make it easier for him to get around his limitations.

A hunter who only hunts with horses might be more likely to support the closure of motorized trails.

A landowner whose private land blocks access to thousands of acres of public land will likely not support concepts like corner crossing or eminent domain being used to create public access through their property.

A hunter who puts in the time to practice shooting skills year round will be more likely to perceive hunters who only "sight in" their rifle with 3 shots of practice per year as unethical.

A hunter who only owns a single rifle they inherited from their granddad, doesn't own a range finder or any other modern hunting equipment might be more likely to perceive any hunter using modern long range equipment as not being ethical or fair chase by comparison.

A hunter who doesn't use aircraft to access their hunting destinations is more likely to support rules that ban the use of aircraft to get to and from hunting destinations.


In the end, individual perspectives are fickle and biased. Trying to limit someone else to benefit your own ideas is a short-term gain long term loss kind of situation. Restrictions on choice and personal freedoms should be few and far between.... and even then, just because a particular perspective is unpopular does not mean that it should be regulated in favor of the majority. Our country was founded on principles intended to protect EVERYONE by protecting the rights of the least of us. Whether we like it or not, we hunters are collectively in the minority (at least here in the United States) Ive read that less than 7% of the US Population are hunters... how many non hunters out there (the vast majority of US Citizens) misunderstand the value of hunting to conservation? How many non hunters would vote (if allowed) to ban all hunting entirely if they were given the chance? It's a scary thought.
 
That guy is obnoxious. Hunter input started with the HAT working groups months ago. I have received dozens of notifications about proposed rule changes by email, through social, news outlets, etc. If someone didn’t know about the proposed rule changes they are really out to lunch.

And to the main point of this guys argument- strictly following hunter input is NOT the way to manage wildlife. If you let every hunter vote on every game management policy then all policies would just be self serving to the general public who are not educated in game management principles and have a very skewed perspective . Your average Fudd thinks they’re smarter than the wildlife biologists and there’s some conspiracy by the F&G to defraud the hunting community and steal our money. An uneducated vote is worse than no vote at all IMO. A typical hunter votes for their own benefit, not the benefit of the herds and hunters as a whole.
The easy-button for IDFG appears to be to use the email addresses they have for every hunter who has purchased a license in the last few year. They could send everyone an email to ask for their input. They did not do this. Was it required? no, but it would have reached more people than did their posts on their Facebook page.

I didn't get the sense that this guy was suggesting that the way to manage wildlife was to strictly follow hunter input... The issue seems to be more to the fact that the commission (and IDFG Staff) admitted that the majority of hunters did NOT want changes or bans, but then disregarded the data they themselves had collected (what little data they had).

The assumptions and intent behind the creation of the HAT Working Group was based on the perception that there was a correlation between harvest success and the increased use of technology. However, there has been no study done to identify the magnitude of the correlation or that it even exists at all. It would be a relatively easy thing for IDFG to use the Mandatory Harvest Report system to disseminate a detailed questionnaire to ALL Idaho hunters to gather this data. In my opinion, The HAT Working Group should ONLY have been created and utilized AFTER this data was compiled and then the public educated on the results of the survey. Once the public was educated on the subject, THEN ask the public for their perceptions.

The issue as I see it isn't about whether or not transmitting game cameras should be regulated... the question is about identifying the best management practices that will enable Idaho's Wildlife to be perpetuated long after my grandchildren are gone. But neither IDFG or the public knows... because the topic hasn't been studied adequately. Maybe banning transmitting cameras will give a 20% decrease in deer harvest statewide... maybe it will only affect .001%. We just have NO IDEA. IDFG doesn't even know how many hunters use transmitting game cameras... let alone the impact it has on their overall harvest success... but they could find out BEFORE they choose to BAN something.
 
When I say “fair chase” I am referencing the definition used by B/C club linked below. . .


Here is the text of that definition, pasted from the site:

The Principles of Fair Chase​



FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.

THE FAIR CHASE HUNTER:​

  • Knows and obeys the law, and insists others do as well
  • Understands that it is not only about just what is legal, but also what is honorable and ethical
  • Defines "unfair advantage" as when the game does not have reasonable chance of escape
  • Cares about and respects all wildlife and the ecosystems that support them, which includes making full use of game animals taken
  • Measures success not in the quantity of game taken, but by the quality of the chase
  • Embraces the "no guarantees" nature of hunting
  • Uses technology in a way that does not diminish the importance of developing skills as a hunter or reduces hunting to just shooting
  • Knows his or her limitations, and stretches the stalk not the shot
  • Takes pride in the decisions he or she makes in the field and takes full responsibility for his or her actions
————
Under that definition of fair chase…. Thermal is CLEARLY not fair chase.
 
When I say “fair chase” I am referencing the definition used by B/C club linked below. . .


Here is the text of that definition, pasted from the site:

The Principles of Fair Chase​



FAIR CHASE, as defined by the Boone and Crockett Club, is the ethical, sportsmanlike, and lawful pursuit and taking of any free-ranging wild game animal in a manner that does not give the hunter an improper or unfair advantage over the game animals.

THE FAIR CHASE HUNTER:​

  • Knows and obeys the law, and insists others do as well
  • Understands that it is not only about just what is legal, but also what is honorable and ethical
  • Defines "unfair advantage" as when the game does not have reasonable chance of escape
  • Cares about and respects all wildlife and the ecosystems that support them, which includes making full use of game animals taken
  • Measures success not in the quantity of game taken, but by the quality of the chase
  • Embraces the "no guarantees" nature of hunting
  • Uses technology in a way that does not diminish the importance of developing skills as a hunter or reduces hunting to just shooting
  • Knows his or her limitations, and stretches the stalk not the shot
  • Takes pride in the decisions he or she makes in the field and takes full responsibility for his or her actions
————
Under that definition of fair chase…. Thermal is CLEARLY not fair chase.
Have you used thermals hunting?
 
I wish people were this concerned about enforcing laws on four-wheelers and SxS. They are way more deadly than thermals or Cellular Trail cameras.


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Agreed

Unfortunately, it seems that debates around whether or not we should limit certain types of tech mean that more weighty issues are not getting as much attention. Furthermore, laws that are already on the books (like the Motorized Hunting Rule) aren't written in a way that makes them easily enforced because they are rife with loopholes. Whether one thinks it is prudent to start banning things that don't fit their personal vibe or not... the new rules as written are just as full of loopholes and will be just as difficult (if not more so) to enforce.
 
Agreed

Unfortunately, it seems that debates around whether or not we should limit certain types of tech mean that more weighty issues are not getting as much attention. Furthermore, laws that are already on the books (like the Motorized Hunting Rule) aren't written in a way that makes them easily enforced because they are rife with loopholes. Whether one thinks it is prudent to start banning things that don't fit their personal vibe or not... the new rules as written are just as full of loopholes and will be just as difficult (if not more so) to enforce.
Not really true, they really need to start writing tickets instead of warnings. I fight this shit every year. In the places where F&G writes tickets, it stops.
 
Not really true, they really need to start writing tickets instead of warnings. I fight this shit every year. In the places where F&G writes tickets, it stops.
Im glad to hear you have had success in your area. However, I'll give the example I referenced earlier, about a conversation I had with a CO in a MHR area. So many of the tickets he would write for violations of the MHR would get tossed out, he pretty much didn't even bother anymore. I didn't get the sense that he believed his situation was unique. Some prosecutors id heard were essentially boycotting the rule and tossing out any MHR violation that came across their desk because they knew that even the slightest resistance from good defense counsel would result in an acquittal. The basic problem with the MHR as it is written is that there are multiple ways that a hunter can excuse behavior that is witnessed by an officer. The only sure way for a CO to get a ticket to stick is if a violator admits their guilt, or otherwise doesn't keep their mouth shut if questioned. Otherwise, its become pretty easy for hunter to strap a tent on the back of his ATV and drive wherever he wants... and if he is questioned, all he has to claim is that he was just in the process of hauling in his camp (one of the exclusions for the rule). If the hunter is driving along and decides he wants to hunt or glass an area, he can really cover his butt and even go to the extra effort of setting the tent up for a few hours. There is nothing in the rule that says your camp has to be set up for X period of time, and nothing that defines the parameters of what a "camp" even is, so there is plenty of wiggle room for anyone who really wants to use their ATV AND avoid a ticket.

The other big issue is, in the parts of the state where the MHR does NOT apply, there is no written IDFG/game violation for using a motor vehicle on a closed road or trail to my knowledge. It may be a violation of a Forest Service or BLM rule... but that is NOT a GAME violation. Basically you pay a small fine and move on. IDFG LEOs have no way to enforce this as far as I know. It would be a simple thing for IDFG to create a rule that makes it a game violation to violate other state or federal laws in the pursuit of hunting... but alas they have not. I discussed this issue with a Forest Service employee I met who was working in one of our wilderness areas. The area had a trail system that often would become inaccessible with trees falling over (especially in the early and late season). It is illegal to use a chainsaw in a wilderness area, however, it had become commonplace for hunters coming to the area, especially those who had invested large sums of cash in preparation for some once in a lifetime backcountry hunt, to disregard the law prohibiting chainsaws. The way the Forest Service guy explained it... it was a basic "cost vs benefit" situation. The guys could come and OBEY the law, in which case it would take them as much as 2 days sometimes to clear the trails adequately with hand tools for their stock to pass through... and when they only had a 7 or 10 day hunt, that was a significant portion of their hunt time wasted. OR, they could disregard the law, bring a chainsaw, maybe pay a $500 fine if they got caught. Either way, the $500 (or whatever the actual fine amount is) was pocket change compared to the thousands they had already invested in the hunt.

So yes, lets get more tickets written for motorized hunting violations, but also lets get the rules changed to make it easier for tickets to stick.
 
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