New Rules go to Idaho Fish and Game Commission for approval, meeting Nov 19-20

Hard pass. Frankly I have better things to do with my time than engage in a theoretical situation that isn't my profession. You wouldn't be convinced even if Matlock himself made a case to my point. You're too wrapped up in our own opinion (imho) that the rules aren't enforceable for me waste a bunch of time trying to convince you otherwise. I don't need to do so. The courts and IDFG enforcement personnel will answer that "question".

Seems a lot easier to wait and see how things play out. If you watch the entirety of the Commission meetings, I think you'll see your concerns addressed at about the 1:18 mark of the meeting. The Commission says REPEATEDLY the need to re-visit the topic to ensure the rules are enforceable and working.

If you're right (and I'm wrong), feel free to publicly rub my nose in it. It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong about a topic...though I'm pretty sure I'm not on this one. At the very least, the IDFG staff and Commission seem to agree with me on this one.

Dave
You seem inclined to let this play out, and let "enforcement" answer for the issue. I will again point to the issue of the Motorized Hunting Rule (MHR). On point, I had a conversation with an IDFG enforcement officer last year where we discussed this issue. I won't share a name, as it was off the record, but he seemed to suggest that his opinion was not unique and it was not a secret... that he did not like the MHR, and would not write tickets for violations of the MHR because the prosecutors and judges always dismissed them if the defendant gave even the slightest resistance... because of the many loopholes and general unenforceability of the MHR as its written. Yet, inspite of this officer's (and others) experience, the MHR has been on the books... unchanged... for how many years now? So, I'd ask the obvious question... even if the current proposed rules are deemed ineffective, how long (if ever) do you think it will take for the new rules to be fixed? If IDFG won't fix the MHR, why would they fix this rule? Why not just do it right the first time?
 
Pretty easy to enforce the rules around thermals if they set acceptable dates for use rather than trying to define intention -( to scout, recover, etc ). Prohibit thermal use during any open ungulate season. Then possession of the device in the field is illegal and easily enforceable.
 
Pretty easy to enforce the rules around thermals if they set acceptable dates for use rather than trying to define intention -( to scout, recover, etc ). Prohibit thermal use during any open ungulate season. Then possession of the device in the field is illegal and easily enforceable.
This ^^^ exactly!
 
As a young person living in Idaho, this is very concerning to me. I spend time in the field and see the utter lack of enforcement of hunting laws as is and seeing further steps away from quality legislation is sad. I do not know why the legislation would be written in this way, but this law is a joke if you know a good lawyer. Courts enforce the law, not Fish and Game. The term knee-jerk legislation comes to mind... The proposed regulation book is published on their website - they did not clean it up. https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/13-0108-2401-proposed-rule-1025.pdf

It is hard to understand why this legislation would be written in such an oblivious manner to the nature of humans and rules. Maybe one of you has a clue. Maybe the book is intended to be amended during the voting process? Otherwise it leaves a door big enough for anyone with a thermal and a wolf tag to walk right by a violation.
 
As a young person living in Idaho, this is very concerning to me. I spend time in the field and see the utter lack of enforcement of hunting laws as is and seeing further steps away from quality legislation is sad. I do not know why the legislation would be written in this way, but this law is a joke if you know a good lawyer. Courts enforce the law, not Fish and Game. The term knee-jerk legislation comes to mind... The proposed regulation book is published on their website - they did not clean it up. https://idfg.idaho.gov/sites/default/files/13-0108-2401-proposed-rule-1025.pdf

It is hard to understand why this legislation would be written in such an oblivious manner to the nature of humans and rules. Maybe one of you has a clue. Maybe the book is intended to be amended during the voting process? Otherwise it leaves a door big enough for anyone with a thermal and a wolf tag to walk right by a violation.
I agree it is very concerning.
I'd encourage you to share your sentiment with the powers that be. Earlier in the thread I include a list of email addresses you can reach out to. Not everyone will respond, but some will.
 
Pretty easy to enforce the rules around thermals if they set acceptable dates for use rather than trying to define intention -( to scout, recover, etc ). Prohibit thermal use during any open ungulate season. Then possession of the device in the field is illegal and easily enforceable.
This was a thought I had. Couldn’t they also make it illegal to possess or be part of a party possessing both a valid big game ungulate tag and a thermal or night vision device? This would be even less restrictive on predator hunters. Problem would be predator hunters “accidentally” finding elk and telling their buddy about it”
 
We’ve spoke/argued about this before. We’ll agree to disagree. I fully support their attempt to limit some of the technology advantages.

In particular, I support eliminating thermal devices and cell cameras. Thermal devices simply tip the scales too far away from “fair chase” imho and in my personal experience using them.

While you may believe their proposals to be “unenforceable”….IDFG clearly does not. Since they are the ones scratching the tickets, I’m comfortable with their ability to do so.

I’ll be sending my support in for their proposals.

Dave
Agree 💯
 
Opportunity to review and comment on the IDFG Strategic Plan

 
Unpopular opinion:
Thermal regulation is a SIMPLE decision.

Thermal is NOT fair chase, therefore thermal should not be legal to hunt big game.

The above poster video complaints about comment periods and idfg lack of inclusion of public opinion does not matter to me on the subject! I am shocked and disappointed the commission is even considering holding public opinion as a deciding factor for legality of a technology that is obviously not fair chase.

Just because people want the easy button does not mean it is the right thing to do or that it is good for the future of hunting.
 
I'm not sure if a link to an Instagram post will work here... but this guy makes some points regarding the public comment process and the most recent IDFG Commission meeting.

That guy is obnoxious. Hunter input started with the HAT working groups months ago. I have received dozens of notifications about proposed rule changes by email, through social, news outlets, etc. If someone didn’t know about the proposed rule changes they are really out to lunch.

And to the main point of this guys argument- strictly following hunter input is NOT the way to manage wildlife. If you let every hunter vote on every game management policy then all policies would just be self serving to the general public who are not educated in game management principles and have a very skewed perspective . Your average Fudd thinks they’re smarter than the wildlife biologists and there’s some conspiracy by the F&G to defraud the hunting community and steal our money. An uneducated vote is worse than no vote at all IMO. A typical hunter votes for their own benefit, not the benefit of the herds and hunters as a whole.
 
Unpopular opinion:
Thermal regulation is a SIMPLE decision.

Thermal is NOT fair chase, therefore thermal should not be legal to hunt big game.

The above poster video complaints about comment periods and idfg lack of inclusion of public opinion does not matter to me on the subject! I am shocked and disappointed the commission is even considering holding public opinion as a deciding factor for legality of a technology that is obviously not fair chase.

Just because people want the easy button does not mean it is the right thing to do or that it is good for the future of hunting.
It's a good topic for debate. What is or is not fair chase or ethical vs unethical? Which advantage or niche that one hunter can cultivate over another should be regulated or banned? It kind of comes down to a matter of perspective.

A hunter who exclusively sits in a Tree Stand with his bow during whitetail season might be more likely to say that using a scoped rifle to hunt big game is not fair chase.

A hunter who doesnt own an ATV or a dirt bike, or otherwise prefers to hike, would be more likely to say that using motor vehicles for hunting is not fair chase.

A hunter who only hunts deer because they can use it to feed their family might be more likely to say that hunting predators for sport is unethical.

A hunter who exclusively hunts with a long bow inside of 30 yards might be more likely to say that using modern compound bows out to 80+ yards is not fair chase.

A hunter who owns or has access to a lot of private land might be more likely to approve of more restrictive trespassing laws.

A hunter who has deep pockets might be more likely to support the sale of public lands... because he will just buy them to use for his own benefit.

A hunter who exclusively hunts bears over bait might be more likely to say that hunters chasing bears with hounds is less ethical.

A hunter with a disability might be more likely to approve of rules that make it easier for him to get around his limitations.

A hunter who only hunts with horses might be more likely to support the closure of motorized trails.

A landowner whose private land blocks access to thousands of acres of public land will likely not support concepts like corner crossing or eminent domain being used to create public access through their property.

A hunter who puts in the time to practice shooting skills year round will be more likely to perceive hunters who only "sight in" their rifle with 3 shots of practice per year as unethical.

A hunter who only owns a single rifle they inherited from their granddad, doesn't own a range finder or any other modern hunting equipment might be more likely to perceive any hunter using modern long range equipment as not being ethical or fair chase by comparison.

A hunter who doesn't use aircraft to access their hunting destinations is more likely to support rules that ban the use of aircraft to get to and from hunting destinations.


In the end, individual perspectives are fickle and biased. Trying to limit someone else to benefit your own ideas is a short-term gain long term loss kind of situation. Restrictions on choice and personal freedoms should be few and far between.... and even then, just because a particular perspective is unpopular does not mean that it should be regulated in favor of the majority. Our country was founded on principles intended to protect EVERYONE by protecting the rights of the least of us. Whether we like it or not, we hunters are collectively in the minority (at least here in the United States) Ive read that less than 7% of the US Population are hunters... how many non hunters out there (the vast majority of US Citizens) misunderstand the value of hunting to conservation? How many non hunters would vote (if allowed) to ban all hunting entirely if they were given the chance? It's a scary thought.
 
That guy is obnoxious. Hunter input started with the HAT working groups months ago. I have received dozens of notifications about proposed rule changes by email, through social, news outlets, etc. If someone didn’t know about the proposed rule changes they are really out to lunch.

And to the main point of this guys argument- strictly following hunter input is NOT the way to manage wildlife. If you let every hunter vote on every game management policy then all policies would just be self serving to the general public who are not educated in game management principles and have a very skewed perspective . Your average Fudd thinks they’re smarter than the wildlife biologists and there’s some conspiracy by the F&G to defraud the hunting community and steal our money. An uneducated vote is worse than no vote at all IMO. A typical hunter votes for their own benefit, not the benefit of the herds and hunters as a whole.
The easy-button for IDFG appears to be to use the email addresses they have for every hunter who has purchased a license in the last few year. They could send everyone an email to ask for their input. They did not do this. Was it required? no, but it would have reached more people than did their posts on their Facebook page.

I didn't get the sense that this guy was suggesting that the way to manage wildlife was to strictly follow hunter input... The issue seems to be more to the fact that the commission (and IDFG Staff) admitted that the majority of hunters did NOT want changes or bans, but then disregarded the data they themselves had collected (what little data they had).

The assumptions and intent behind the creation of the HAT Working Group was based on the perception that there was a correlation between harvest success and the increased use of technology. However, there has been no study done to identify the magnitude of the correlation or that it even exists at all. It would be a relatively easy thing for IDFG to use the Mandatory Harvest Report system to disseminate a detailed questionnaire to ALL Idaho hunters to gather this data. In my opinion, The HAT Working Group should ONLY have been created and utilized AFTER this data was compiled and then the public educated on the results of the survey. Once the public was educated on the subject, THEN ask the public for their perceptions.

The issue as I see it isn't about whether or not transmitting game cameras should be regulated... the question is about identifying the best management practices that will enable Idaho's Wildlife to be perpetuated long after my grandchildren are gone. But neither IDFG or the public knows... because the topic hasn't been studied adequately. Maybe banning transmitting cameras will give a 20% decrease in deer harvest statewide... maybe it will only affect .001%. We just have NO IDEA. IDFG doesn't even know how many hunters use transmitting game cameras... let alone the impact it has on their overall harvest success... but they could find out BEFORE they choose to BAN something.
 
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