New Rifle Build- Bullet and Caliber- Mono metal- Thoughts?

[ropeup79]

The Swede in my books can get 2850+ with 120gr bullet and 2750ish w/ 140 gr at only 50-55k psi. Load it to 60k in a modern action and it’s even better. It’s medium length cartridge so you have lots of room to seat long bullets out in a Tikka. I’m surprised it’s not more popular.

Edited to add that on your chart the Swede’s case capacity is closer to the 6.5x284 than the CM or 260. Some manuals neuter it to be safe in old Mausers.

 

[WI-Carcosa]

The Swede in my books can get 2850+ with 120gr bullet and 2750ish w/ 140 gr at only 50-55k psi. Load it to 60k in a modern action and it’s even better. It’s medium length cartridge so you have lots of room to seat long bullets out in a Tikka. I’m surprised it’s not more popular.

Agreed. 135g DRTs are going 2740 fps out of my t3 Swede 19” barrel.

 

[SDHNTR]

You are over obsessing and intentionally looking for unnecessary nits to pick!

Realize that the mindset from guys like Form/Unknown is on one end of the spectrum and thoughts from Barnsness’ are way over on the other end. I wouldn’t take either one as gospel. Form is new school, data driven, and tactical minded. Barsness is old school, has decades of hunting experience and has ideas steeped in Fuddlore, yet his stuff is not without value. Find your best answers out of something in the middle.

If you want to keep the long action and not use a bolt stop. The 6.5-06 is the easy button and will have to best performance. You likely won’t shoot enough to wear out the barrel, but if you do, it’s an easy and relatively inexpensive fix to spin on a new one. If you like nostalgia and value cool factor, the Swede is bad ass and can be pushed in modern actions much faster than books indicate due to old Mauser mil surp actions still in use. You can blow the doors off a Creed/.260, yet not quite match a 6.5-06. It’s a simple matter of case capacity.

Stop thinking and start doing.

 

[JGRaider]

You are over obsessing and intentionally looking for unnecessary nits to pick!

Realize that the mindset from guys like Form/Unknown is on one end of the spectrum and thoughts from Barnsness’ are way over on the other end. I wouldn’t take either one as gospel. Form is new school, data driven, and tactical minded. Barsness is old school, has decades of hunting experience and has ideas steeped in Fuddlore, yet his stuff is not without value. Find your best answers out of something in the middle.

Stop thinking and start doing.

HIs value is having 50+ years of experience knowing exactly what works and doesn't work. BTW, it's Barsness.

 

[amassi]

For reference Barnes factory ammo 6.5 Creedmoor 127 LRX @ 245 yards.

Not the bullet I would choose
Think about the
Hammers or Mcguire ballistics

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You realize that’s what 70% of the hammer bullet looks like once it sheds its petals?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SDHNTR]

HIs value is having 50+ years of experience knowing exactly what works and doesn't work. BTW, it's Barsness.

I agree. Yet some of his thoughts could use some modernization too.

In this Internet age, where information is no longer vetted prior to being published, I think one of the most important life skills is the ability to discern BS from informative value. There’s lots of both on this site. And sometimes, both come from the same source. I’ve learned from both schools of thought and do not fully dismiss, nor blindly subscribe, to either side.

 

[HandgunHTR]

If it were me and I didn't already have multiple rifles to fit into the category that you are trying to fill (minus the mono bullets for me), I would be building either a 6.5-06 to shoot the 120-131 grain Hammers, or a 280AI to shoot the 130-145 grain Hammers. With the 6.5-06, you have the advantage of using the brass you already have from the 30-06. With the 280AI, you get a bit more powder capacity.

The 6 Creed is a fine choice as well and I would just leave the long action bolt stop in it, buy a couple of M+ magazines and rock on.

 

[ericacymcdonald]

I know there's a lot of hate for the .270 due to the slower twist rates but I really think it's a whole new cartridge if you using monos. Every copper bullet manufacturer has tons of options for fast or slow twist rifles. Plus during covid components were still available, last year I sold my .280ai and built a fast twist .270 due to living in California and don't regret it at all

 

[Macintosh]

For reference Barnes factory ammo 6.5 Creedmoor 127 LRX @ 245 yards.

Not the bullet I would choose
Think about the
Hammers or Mcguire ballistics

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That sure looks like it hit something off-angle and deflected/tumbled. The minimal expansion looks an awful lot like the photos of very low velocity impacts, like sub 1600fps. I'm sure it can happen but has not been at all my experience, where I've seen consistent exit holes larger than caliber diameter, and the only two bullets I've recoved being peeled back completely to the solid base. These are both 168gr TTSX (which I'm told was actually the first LRX bullet) fired from a short-barreled 30-06 so velocity around 2800fps, ie very similar to a 6.5cm, one from 60 yards, the other from just over 100. I've never recovered other bullets even at longer range, but I question...if it didnt tumble, and it clearly didnt expand, then why didnt it pass through? Seems it pretty much had to have been tumbling for one reason or another?

 

[SDHNTR]

That sure looks like it hit something off-angle and deflected/tumbled. The minimal expansion looks an awful lot like the photos of very low velocity impacts, like sub 1600fps. I'm sure it can happen but has not been at all my experience, where I've seen consistent exit holes larger than caliber diameter, and the only two bullets I've recoved being peeled back completely to the solid base. These are both 168gr TTSX (which I'm told was actually the first LRX bullet) fired from a short-barreled 30-06 so velocity around 2800fps, ie very similar to a 6.5cm, one from 60 yards, the other from just over 100. I've never recovered other bullets even at longer range, but I question...if it didnt tumble, and it clearly didnt expand, then why didnt it pass through? Seems it pretty much had to have been tumbling for one reason or another?View attachment 774163

Exactly.

 

[Macintosh]

OP, I've used traditional copper monos on not a ton of animals, but enough to feel like I have a sense of what to expect. FWIW I have not seen much, if any, difference in wound channels between 6.5cm, 7mm-08, 270win, 30-06. The exits are all a little bigger than caliber diameter up to about the size of a golf ball, with velocity seeming to make more of a difference than caliber. I picked up the 270 specifically for monos, it's zippy. But if I was building something from scratch I'd for certain be looking at a 6cm. (or similar if you handload--I dont).

 

[6mm Remington]

How about put a custom barrel on it chambered in 30-06 only use a 24" barrel instead of the 22" factory barrel they come with. Put a nice aftermarket stock on it and have a gunsmith fine tune the trigger to 2.5 pounds. No flies on the 30-06 especially with a well bedded and tuned 24" barrel. Keep it but make it better.

 

[6mm Remington]

Or 6-06, or 6.5-06.

Especially if the RP already has a 280AI, or I would have suggested that. The 6mm-06 would be a screamer.

 

[6mm Remington]

I don’t have photos, but I have used Barnes and Hammers for 25 years now. Anecdotally, I see better wound channels with the Hammers.

Elk one shot with 90 gr. E-tip out of his 6mm Remington at 3140 fps, 350 yards. Bullet hit tight behind the right shoulder in the lungs and exited out the center of the left shoulder. She staggered 20 yards and dropped.

Bullets shot into gallon water jugs lined up to do penetration, expansion, and weight retention tests, and for just great fun and practice. A custom 6mm-06 build on the the Tikka action would be pretty sweet and would scream out of a 24" barrel.

 

[180ls1]

124 6.5 Hammer from a lope, frontal. 3150ish impact, spun fast (7 twist). I’ve actually dropped more animals wirh this load in particular than anything else.

 

[JGRaider]

I agree. Yet some of his thoughts could use some modernization too.

In this Internet age, where information is no longer vetted prior to being published, I think one of the most important life skills is the ability to discern BS from informative value. There’s lots of both on this site. And sometimes, both come from the same source. I’ve learned from both schools of thought and do not fully dismiss, nor blindly subscribe, to either side.

Your too narrow minded with regards to Barsness. He's been in the ballistic business for decades, reloading for decades, and testing stuff for decades. I'd be willing to bet he knows more about this business than 98% of anybody here, even the modern stuff, in spite of you referring to him a Fudd.

 

[MatukaJoe]

I will admit I did not read through all the pages on this but it is something I've been debating myself. Right now, by the way, I shoot a 6.5 PRC with 147 grain DRTs
They are not making the 147 grain anymore who knows if they ever will again...
I also know that all of their products are out of stock and that concerns me a bit.
I would love to make a 6 Mill creedmoor. For out to 500 it would absolutely be a wonderful caliber for killing all sized game but DRT only makes a 95 grain bullet and I'm concerned with that weight. Maybe @Formidilosus has some thoughts on that.
If we're looking at a one and done type scenario it's really tough to beat the 6.5 creedmoor IMO with the right bullet such as the 135 grain DRT if it gets back in stock anytime soon. Simply bc of the vast number of rifles and manufacturers.
Also if we are not to see much more of the DRT ammunition (which would be a true disappointment) you might look at Maker's bullets as their design seems to expand significantly even for the standard mushroom bullet type, with a larger expansion character vs similar style of monolithic bullets.
Cheers and good luck!

 

[SDHNTR]

You’re too narrow minded with regards to Barsness. He's been in the ballistic business for decades, reloading for decades, and testing stuff for decades. I'd be willing to bet he knows more about this business than 98% of anybody here, even the modern stuff, in spite of you referring to him a Fudd.

I never said he knew nothing. He’s a knowledgeable Fudd.

 

[DagOtto]

The Swede in my books can get 2850+ with 120gr bullet and 2750ish w/ 140 gr at only 50-55k psi. Load it to 60k in a modern action and it’s even better. It’s medium length cartridge so you have lots of room to seat long bullets out in a Tikka. I’m surprised it’s not more popular.

Edited to add that on your chart the Swede’s case capacity is closer to the 6.5x284 than the CM or 260. Some manuals neuter it to be safe in old Mausers.

Thanks, I have been using Nosler's reloading data to come up with my capacity and speeds. I've taken the average "max" of the various powders tried and then deducted 50 fps per inch from the test barrel listed to get to approximate 18" barrel speeds. Not super accurate, but I feel that the comparison between cartridges is probably pretty realistic.

 

[DagOtto]

You are over obsessing and intentionally looking for unnecessary nits to pick!

Realize that the mindset from guys like Form/Unknown is on one end of the spectrum and thoughts from Barnsness’ are way over on the other end. I wouldn’t take either one as gospel. Form is new school, data driven, and tactical minded. Barsness is old school, has decades of hunting experience and has ideas steeped in Fuddlore, yet his stuff is not without value. Find your best answers out of something in the middle.

If you want to keep the long action and not use a bolt stop. The 6.5-06 is the easy button and will have to best performance. You likely won’t shoot enough to wear out the barrel, but if you do, it’s an easy and relatively inexpensive fix to spin on a new one. If you like nostalgia and value cool factor, the Swede is bad ass and can be pushed in modern actions much faster than books indicate due to old Mauser mil surp actions still in use. You can blow the doors off a Creed/.260, yet not quite match a 6.5-06. It’s a simple matter of case capacity.

Stop thinking and start doing.

I agree with the nitpicking and obsession part. I am just appreciative that others are willing to play these "stupid human tricks" with me as I'm in no hurry to finish this build and enjoy the mental gymnastics. I've learned a ton from going through these kinds of deep analysis and appreciate how much others have taught me.

I know that to be a more affective hunter and marksman I should just decide and get out in the field and on the range. Rather than spending hours assembling spreadsheets comparing cailbers and cartridges and obsessing about which scope rings will be best I'd be far better off doing another 100 rounds of practical hunter shooting tests and working on my cow calls and bugles!

As for 6.5-06 I'm very attracted to that cartridge. But I do like the idea of this gun being my 1000 round per year gun. (aspirational statement) And the 6 mm yields much lower recoils across the board.

I talked to the guys at X-caliber barrels today and they answered some of my questions about twist rates and grooves so I'm going to have to get off the proverbial pot and make a decision pretty soon.....