New MT Mule Deer Rifle Season

[Sioux33]

So you’re not seeing deer during the season?

Never said that. Just know what I'm seeing doesn't translate long-term.

 

[deadwolf]

This isn't about "trophy hunters" or "I want a season just for me" hunters. It's about MT FWP ignoring the downward trend of the past 10 years, skyrocketing number of new resident hunters and new age technology. It's not a sustainable season long term and a lot of people believe we should be proactive, not reactive.

Again, if it's such a great idea, why aren't we requesting WY, ID, and CO to open the floodgates all through November. Or is it just that some folks want a rut hunt with a rifle to extend their season after they're home state shuts down? If so, isn't that an "I want a season just for me" approach?

The charts/graphs posted just a handful of posts back up the thread show the exact opposite of a downward trend in the last ten years, in fact they show a greater number of mule deer in 2021 vs. 2011


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[Schaaf]

There are way more deer across Montana now than 2010. The deer numbers are literally higher than objective in most regions.

This is not true. 2011-yes, 2010- no.

 

[Schaaf]

The charts/graphs posted just a handful of posts back up the thread show the exact opposite of a downward trend in the last ten years, in fact they show a greater number of mule deer in 2021 vs. 2011


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2011 was the worst winter Montana has had in decades, hardly a static baseline.

 

[Formidilosus]

How long have you been hunting this state? I’ve noticed a decline in numbers a significant decline I believe it’s from multiple reasons and if you wanna shoot a deer so bad get some b tags in a over objective unit because soon enough there won’t be enough bucks to get the does breed

For a decade.

So hold on- there’s a decline in deer numbers, but your suggestion is to get a B tag?
Not enough bucks to get does bred? You guys are reaching at straws now. Now matter how few bucks there are, the vast, vast majority of does will get bred.

Never said that. Just know what I'm seeing doesn't translate long-term.

Except that shooting bucks, does not effect the deer herd- shooting females does.

 

[deadwolf]

2011 was the worst winter Montana has had in decades, hardly a static baseline.

Apologies, I didn’t create the chart. What year would you like to pick to create the baseline?


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[Spoonbill]

Do you also get archery season in your state because here we get 6 weeks of archery 6 weeks of rifle and 10 days of the heritage muzzleloader season. I know it will never be shortened on this state you can see peoples reactions. The I’ve always hunted thru the rut. So why not tweak tags and weapon restrictions to keep this long season everyone wants so much


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General archery is a month long in most units. I would still rather have Montana length rifle seasons then what we currently have in Idaho.

 

[Spoonbill]

Because comparing whitetail populations and habitat carrying capacity to mule deer just doesn't work. Whitetail populations are exploding, mule deer populations are declining.

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I know it isn’t a direct comparison but my point was that hunting seasons during the rut isn’t unique to Montana.
I know mule deer populations are decreasing but I don’t think hunting during the rut is the cause. Bucks shot during the rut are still breeding does. Habitat loss, predators and competition are likely bigger causes.
If the concern around limiting the season is mule deer specific, then only allow whitetail bucks to be shot during the rut. Not sure if that would work but seems like it could be a solution between those who want a longer season vs those who want a shorter season.

 

[cgasner1]

For a decade.

So hold on- there’s a decline in deer numbers, but your suggestion is to get a B tag?
Not enough bucks to get does bred? You guys are reaching at straws now. Now matter how few bucks there are, the vast, vast majority of does will get bred.




Except that shooting bucks, does not effect the deer herd- shooting females does.

Well if you look at region 7 in the last couple years they have cut the b tags in half. But the area is “overpopulated” according to Fwp. Our elk tags we have public and private only tags I’m not sure why we don’t for deer. This overpopulation they speak of is on private just like the elk but no one gets spun up about deer like they do elk. And you wait soon enough there won’t be enough to breed the does.


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[S.Clancy]

Apologies, I didn’t create the chart. What year would you like to pick to create the baseline?


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I'm pretty sure they give the Long Term Average (LTA) population on that chart. Also, for those unable to use the Google, here's the link fwp.mt.gov/conservation/wildlife-management/deer , scroll down to "Population and Distribution" for pdf's.

 

[S.Clancy]

Well if you look at region 7 in the last couple years they have cut the b tags in half. But the area is “overpopulated” according to Fwp. Our elk tags we have public and private only tags I’m not sure why we don’t for deer. This overpopulation they speak of is on private just like the elk but no one gets spun up about deer like they do elk. And you wait soon enough there won’t be enough to breed the does.


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LTA is aroung 90,000 mule deer for R7. We are under that as of 2021, hence the cut in B-tags.

 

[gunbear]

I disagree with this. Oct 31 is too early. Early October is too warm, and limits the type of hunting.

My group hunted in the Custer this year near Broadus in November. It was a good fun hunt. I would hate to see the options reduced. Limit the tags if more management is needed

 

[cgasner1]

I disagree with this. Oct 31 is too early. Early October is too warm, and limits the type of hunting.

My group hunted in the Custer this year near Broadus in November. It was a good fun hunt. I would hate to see the options reduced. Limit the tags if more management is needed

2 years ago our opening weekend the temp probably never hit zero. I had to use a torch on my toy hauler to open the back door. Probably not to warm to be hunting. Not all Octobers are equal in this state


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[deadwolf]

I'm pretty sure they give the Long Term Average (LTA) population on that chart. Also, for those unable to use the Google, here's the link fwp.mt.gov/conservation/wildlife-management/deer , scroll down to "Population and Distribution" for pdf's.

Yes they do give the LTA in the chart. I was only trying to point out that one could pick any year they wanted to make the numbers fit their agenda. For example if you used five years ago, when numbers were very high, then the big decrease to 2021 looks really bad. But going back ten years to 2011 after the hard winter, the numbers were way down from 2010, so 2021 numbers actually look good. Let’s see LTA going back 20, 30 years. I’m genuinely curious as I’ve been hunting in Montana for over 10 years.


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[MT257]

Yes they do give the LTA in the chart. I was only trying to point out that one could pick any year they wanted to make the numbers fit their agenda. For example if you used five years ago, when numbers were very high, then the big decrease to 2021 looks really bad. But going back ten years to 2011 after the hard winter, the numbers were way down from 2010, so 2021 numbers actually look good. Let’s see LTA going back 20, 30 years. I’m genuinely curious as I’ve been hunting in Montana for over 10 years.


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How many of those deer in any of the years actually reside on public ground?

 

[S.Clancy]

Yes they do give the LTA in the chart. I was only trying to point out that one could pick any year they wanted to make the numbers fit their agenda. For example if you used five years ago, when numbers were very high, then the big decrease to 2021 looks really bad. But going back ten years to 2011 after the hard winter, the numbers were way down from 2010, so 2021 numbers actually look good. Let’s see LTA going back 20, 30 years. I’m genuinely curious as I’ve been hunting in Montana for over 10 years.


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From the new mule deer management plan, the new LTA is an average of all years data. Previously they measured a 10 yr average I believe

 

[MT257]

From the new mule deer management plan, the new LTA is an average of all years data. Previously they measured a 10 yr average I believe

When was the new management plan put out?

 

[S.Clancy]

How many of those deer in any of the years actually reside on public ground?

ALOT of deer in R7 and R6 reside on publicly accessible ground (BMA or public lands). Not all obviously.

 

[S.Clancy]

When was the new management plan put out?

This document is Oct 2021. I think it is more an "update" than a new management plan.

Edit: the file is too large, but it's easily found using my previous link.

 

[Schaaf]

We don’t have a mule deer management plan- or if we do it’s very hap hazardly formed. There was funding from the 2019 Legislative Session allocated for a mule deer specialist to work towards a statewide plan but that work has stalled under the current administration.

Long Term Averages are useless unless they take into account populations from 95-05 as well. A current 10 year LTA is an artificially low number.